Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

“Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

projectsherpa.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–27 of 27 posts

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#21

Post by sanderjd »

j_baker wrote: post #14
pinaceae wrote: post #10

"The product side needs to provide a set of requirements, and the development side needs to find out what the client needs, and how to deliver it. The development side has to have enough product knowledge to determine the actual need, not the stated want" disagree with that statement. "The product side needs to find out what the client really needs and build requirements out of it. The development side has to determi…

See? Now you're going back to "engineer is a dumb machine who translates other peoples' thoughts into code" land. Reality is more like this: "The sales side figures out what customers claim they can't live without. The product side figures out how to turn those perceived needs into a product. Development figures out how to make it meet with reality."

You're both being far too black-and-white or even adversarial - the jobs of both the product and development teams is to talk to each other to determine how to realistically make the product that the customers want.

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#22

Post by benkross »

j_baker wrote: post #13
benkross wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been fortunate to be surrounded by people who are generally intelligent and progressive that believe engineers should be part of the entire lifecycle. Would you care to share your experience with us?

It's rarely that blatant. Most people use more covert methods to keep engineers out of the lifecycle. It can be frustrating because most of these statements can be valid when uttered under different circumstances. - "Only " power users " will use that." Sometimes this one's true, but some people will say this about any idea engineers come up with. - "Let's see what someone in product thinks." The key thing you have t…

Hey j_baker thanks for sharing your perspective. The beauty and curse of code is that it's hard to have subtext that isn't explicit, like in your example. Again if "Let's see what product thinks" has the negative connotation you allude to, in my mind that is a horribly run company. We are still very small (6 ppl) so I want everyone to think like product managers and CEOs - as long as they fulfill their core responsibilities. It gets a little harder bc sometimes, engineers will be vetoed, not because they don't have great ideas, but ultimately, there is some negotiation between a great product/experience and something sellable or to work with a time constraint.

I personally think it is ASININE not to involve my engineers in the decision process, bc they might be able to optimize my business process, or even my thoughts as a product owner. I am a sales and marketing guy, that desperately wants to become a good product manager. The only way I can do that is by learning from others' approaches. If you'd like to continue the dialogue feel free to email me at ben@projectsherpa.com

Cheers,

Ben CoFounder ProjectSherpa ben@projectsherpa.com

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#23

Post by benkross »

nudetayne wrote: post #18
matthewsinclair wrote: post #16

I've had a similar experience in financial services but from the other direction, and particularly as an architect. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the phrase "I'm a banker, I don't need to understand the technology" from people in very senior positions with very high salaries. The thing that they fail to understand - apart from routinely missing fundamental banking concepts like "on behalf of" or "produ…

Everything is based on stored bits. It's how those bits are interpreted that matters. No banker should care that they store bits instead of physical cash. It simply doesn't matter. I've only ever seen inept programmers think that everyone should know the underlying technology, which I guess you could say is hypocritical, as I doubt many of them truly understand what's happening in the lower levels of programming, phy…

That is all going to change as the world becomes more data driven. As a sales person, relationships are important, but still without a deep understanding of my data, I would be incredibly inefficient. Talk like that also sounds like what the Equities traders were saying up until 2007 or 2008. I don't need to know tech, I don't need to know algos, until they were replaced by trading tech and those same guys who were making 1.5-2 MM/yr couldn't get 150K jobs. Automation and electronification are happening. Only people at Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein's level can truly afford to be luddites. As the old guard dies, the youth will start changing everything. Technocrats vs Plutocrats will rule.

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#24

Post by benkross »

matthewsinclair wrote: post #16

I've had a similar experience in financial services but from the other direction, and particularly as an architect. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the phrase "I'm a banker, I don't need to understand the technology" from people in very senior positions with very high salaries. The thing that they fail to understand - apart from routinely missing fundamental banking concepts like "on behalf of" or "produ…

Matthew, I should have put my response to you. I'll be curious to see what happens with Bitcoin and when crytocurrencies become the norm, whether the business will start to respect tech. Show me a great business mind with great technical sense and s/he will be the master of the universe. Algo and HFT which now move the majority of capital markets are essentially just messages passed back and forth. So to your point - you nailed it! And this is coming from a sales guy who recognizes the EXTREME strategic advantage technology provides. If any of you are interested in a Beta invite to the Next Gen job search and career management platform send me an email to ben@projectsherpa.com with the subject BETA

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#25

Post by benkross »

gliese1337 wrote: post #17
matthewsinclair wrote: post #16

I've had a similar experience in financial services but from the other direction, and particularly as an architect. I can't tell you how many times I have heard the phrase "I'm a banker, I don't need to understand the technology" from people in very senior positions with very high salaries. The thing that they fail to understand - apart from routinely missing fundamental banking concepts like "on behalf of" or "produ…

You have to consider their goals, which define their needs. If they are in very senior positions and have very high salaries already, and don't understand the technology, then it's fairly obvious that they do not need to understand the technology. They got everything they wanted without that ever being a requirement. Of course, it's better for everybody else if they do. We need them to understand the technology. They…

Until they are going to be bankers for a tech entrepreneur's M+A deal or IPO. Then we'll see how much they need to know tech ;) The meek shall inherit the earth in some ways was foretelling the rise of the technologists - disclaimer, I am not religious and mean it in it's literal sense.

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#26

Post by nudetayne »

benkross wrote: post #23
nudetayne wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is based on stored bits. It's how those bits are interpreted that matters. No banker should care that they store bits instead of physical cash. It simply doesn't matter. I've only ever seen inept programmers think that everyone should know the underlying technology, which I guess you could say is hypocritical, as I doubt many of them truly understand what's happening in the lower levels of programming, phy…

That is all going to change as the world becomes more data driven. As a sales person, relationships are important, but still without a deep understanding of my data, I would be incredibly inefficient. Talk like that also sounds like what the Equities traders were saying up until 2007 or 2008. I don't need to know tech, I don't need to know algos, until they were replaced by trading tech and those same guys who were m…

If you could throw in some extra buzzwords and drop a few more names, it might be helpful in convincing me you're not an idiot.

Re: “Developers Don't Need to Know the Product”

#27

Post by benkross »

nudetayne wrote: post #26
benkross wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all going to change as the world becomes more data driven. As a sales person, relationships are important, but still without a deep understanding of my data, I would be incredibly inefficient. Talk like that also sounds like what the Equities traders were saying up until 2007 or 2008. I don't need to know tech, I don't need to know algos, until they were replaced by trading tech and those same guys who were m…

If you could throw in some extra buzzwords and drop a few more names, it might be helpful in convincing me you're not an idiot.

Synergy.
Post reply on HN