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Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

college-basketball.si.com

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Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#21

Post by na85 »

nhebb wrote: post #20
jgrahamc wrote: post #4

I'm guessing the title was chosen because the submitter thought coding in Fortran was stupid, or old, or whatever. The reality is that Fortran has been updated frequently and for what he's doing seems like a reasonable choice (plus he probably has a store of routines that he likes to use for certain analyses). Old language != Bad language From TFA: "SI: Is it true you still code in Fortran? JS: Yeah, what’s wrong wit…

The problem isn't with the programming language; it with his algorithms. Sagarin's rankings are often an outlier, frequently in ways that just don't make sense.

Well then his algorithms would still be wonky if he wrote them in Python or Haskell.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#22

Post by treerex »

Absolutely nothing wrong with Fortran. In the 90s I worked on source-level optimizations in the HPF (High-Performance Fortran) compiler at Thinking Machines: not having a numerical processing background (and having only used Fortran for one course in college, which was Microsoft Fortran with each compiler phase on a separate floppy) it was fascinating to work on, and I found Fortran 90 to be pretty compelling in a lot of numeric operations. There is a lot of code out there that was written and debugged years ago and there is no reason to change.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#23

Post by MichaelSalib »

na85 wrote: post #16
MichaelSalib wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, people have been doing high performance numeric and scientific computing in python for over 15 years now. The truth is, for a lot of numeric computing, you're better off using python, which calls fortran or c code to do the heavy lifting. Fortran can run very fast. If all you need to do is numerical calculations, that might be enough. But that's never all you need to do: you need to preprocess your input data, or…

>Um, people have been doing high performance numeric and scientific computing for over 15 years now. Have I disputed this fact somewhere? >The truth is, for a lot of numeric computing, you're better off using python, which calls fortran or c code to do the heavy lifting. Proof that Python can't get the job done in that particular area. Nevertheless there remain Python zealots who will tell you that it's the best for…

Have I disputed this fact somewhere?

Yes, when you were complaining that "These are the guys trying to cram Python into every possible goddamned use case".

Proof that Python can't get the job done in that particular area.

Python can't run at all without C code. Fortunately, Python interfaces really well with C and C++ and fortran. The fact that Python lets you be way more productive using fortran tools without having to know or suffer from fotran's glaring deficiencies seems like a huge plus to me.

Reading and spitting out a .csv file from Fortran is trivial, despite its clunky IO syntax.

Not really. People who do serious analysis need to make graphs. They need to push data back into SQL databases. They need to do all sorts of interactive analyses. They need to present their results and analytics to other people, including reviewers. They need to debug their analysis. All of that stuff is much easier with python than fortran.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#24

Post by rhizome »

kyllo wrote: post #12
na85 wrote: post #2

The point of this submission being....? The fact that someone runs statistics calculations in Fortran (a language whose most recent standard is dated 2008) should be shocking only to the recent generation of coders who have become "code hipsters." The guys looking for the Next Big Thing™ in programming languages. These are the guys trying to cram Python into every possible goddamned use case, whether that be embedded…

These are the guys trying to cram Javascript into every possible goddamned use case Fixed that for you. Yes Fortran is probably the right tool for the job in this case, but I also think that creative experimentation with programming languages, invention of new languages, new implementations of and enhancements to existing languages, are good and important, and not just a "hipster" thing. All modern programming langua…

It's a matter of taste. How many verbal languages can you speak and write? Computer languages aren't special, and polyglotism is really only a hallmark of CS-mindedness, which is actually yet another form of hipsterism. It's not a real thing, and the language that is best is the language that the programmer is most productive.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#25

Post by mbq »

kyllo wrote: post #8
Wilya wrote: post #5

Fortan isn't dead, by far. There is a lot of scientific and industrial code (in astronomy, aeronautics, ...) that is in Fortran. And I'm not talking about legacy stuff that is only in maintenance mode. These codes are still evolving and get new functionalities. They're not in Fortran only for legacy reasons (though that plays some part). They're in Fortran because Fortan is still the right tool for the job. Scientifi…

Yeah, anyone who has installed numpy, matplotlib, etc has probably noticed that you need a Fortran compiler to build the native extensions...

My favourite example is randomForest, probably the most often used implementation of Random Forest, one of the most popular machine learning method. And it is an R package calling C calling Fortran 77.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#26

Post by sliverstorm »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #23
na85 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Um, people have been doing high performance numeric and scientific computing for over 15 years now. Have I disputed this fact somewhere? >The truth is, for a lot of numeric computing, you're better off using python, which calls fortran or c code to do the heavy lifting. Proof that Python can't get the job done in that particular area. Nevertheless there remain Python zealots who will tell you that it's the best for…

Have I disputed this fact somewhere? Yes, when you were complaining that "These are the guys trying to cram Python into every possible goddamned use case". Proof that Python can't get the job done in that particular area. Python can't run at all without C code. Fortunately, Python interfaces really well with C and C++ and fortran. The fact that Python lets you be way more productive using fortran tools without having…

People who do serious analysis need to make graphs

Which is where the aforementioned CSV files come in handy. Heard of GNUplot?

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#27

Post by dchest »

jgrahamc wrote: post #4

I'm guessing the title was chosen because the submitter thought coding in Fortran was stupid, or old, or whatever. The reality is that Fortran has been updated frequently and for what he's doing seems like a reasonable choice (plus he probably has a store of routines that he likes to use for certain analyses). Old language != Bad language From TFA: "SI: Is it true you still code in Fortran? JS: Yeah, what’s wrong wit…

the submitter thought coding in Fortran was stupid, or old, or whatever

I don't think it's stupid or old, but it's certainly interesting: in the world where hopping from one newest technology to another is normal, somebody sticking to what they are used to is noteworthy. Some other examples are Bob Staake using Photoshop 3.0 (http://www.bobstaake.com/pixfix/films.shtml) or OpenBSD using CVS (hehe) and writing their own version of it.

Maybe that's what the submitter thought.

(Yes, Fortran is still updated, but it's certainly not the cutting edge tech. Or maybe it will be, after this HN submission.)

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#28

Post by mathattack »

A lot of financial services academic modelling is still done in Fortran too. The old programs still run, and new results keep coming.

It was interesting that the NCAA doesn't include scores in their methodology, just wins and losses. Is that because they don't want to officially encourage teams to run up the score? It doesn't stop teams from doing that, but perhaps that's because they are trying to impress other audiences.

Re: Verbatim: Stats guru Jeff Sagarin

#30

Post by sampo »

dchest wrote: post #27
jgrahamc wrote: post #4

I'm guessing the title was chosen because the submitter thought coding in Fortran was stupid, or old, or whatever. The reality is that Fortran has been updated frequently and for what he's doing seems like a reasonable choice (plus he probably has a store of routines that he likes to use for certain analyses). Old language != Bad language From TFA: "SI: Is it true you still code in Fortran? JS: Yeah, what’s wrong wit…

the submitter thought coding in Fortran was stupid, or old, or whatever I don't think it's stupid or old, but it's certainly interesting : in the world where hopping from one newest technology to another is normal, somebody sticking to what they are used to is noteworthy. Some other examples are Bob Staake using Photoshop 3.0 ( http://www.bobstaake.com/pixfix/films.shtml ) or OpenBSD using CVS (hehe) and writing thei…

> but it's certainly not the cutting edge tech

In a way, array slicing syntax has been with us since Algol 68, so it's not cutting edge. But still, Wikipedia only lists Algol, Matlab, R, Fortran, Sinclair Basic, Ada, Perl, Python and then coming to modern times, D and Go, as having that feature.

So it kind of feels like cutting edge in times when I'm lucky enough to be writing in a language that supports it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Array_slicing

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