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Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

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Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#21

Post by throwawaykf02 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #4

As a new immigrant to the USA, I am simply appalled at the infringement of privacy that is being carried out by the NSA and the government. In Australia, we learned that the 1st amendment protected the Freedom of Speech of every American. How can you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press when every private communication of citizens and reporters alike are being scrutinized by secret agencies in the governme…

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#22

Post by jnbiche »

argumentum wrote: post #17
jnbiche wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

I don't think you even read the post you replied to ..

Of course I did. My stand is this: what the US needs now, possibly more than any time before in its history, is for the full extent of the surveillance and other activities by the NSA and other IC members to be revealed to the public. What happens next year in the Senate Intelligence Committee is much less important.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#23

Post by jnbiche »

LoganCale wrote: post #14
jnbiche wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

Their committee appointment is important to us, not just them. It's better to have a few allies on these committees, even if their hands are tied, than to have none at all. They've done more than most have been able to do, including calling out NSA lies.

I strongly disagree, but I respect that we're on the same side here, so I'll very carefully consider your logic. But in return, I'd ask you to carefully consider my argument, which is that we need to know the current damage right now far more than we need allies in the Senate IC in the future.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#24

Post by bengrunfeld »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #21
bengrunfeld wrote: post #4

As a new immigrant to the USA, I am simply appalled at the infringement of privacy that is being carried out by the NSA and the government. In Australia, we learned that the 1st amendment protected the Freedom of Speech of every American. How can you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press when every private communication of citizens and reporters alike are being scrutinized by secret agencies in the governme…

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

I believe that you can't truly speak freely when you don't have any privacy.

This from Wikipedia - Freedom of Speech:

"Freedom of information is an extension of freedom of speech where the medium of expression is the Internet. Freedom of information may also refer to the right to privacy in the context of the Internet and information technology. As with the right to freedom of expression, the right to privacy is a recognised human right and freedom of information acts as an extension to this right."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#25

Post by gasull »

ihsw wrote: post #13
jnbiche wrote: post #6

Two things are bothering me immensely: 1. Each time something increasingly worse about the NSA surveillance gets revealed, or confirmed, Sens. Wyden and Udall release a statement saying something like: "This is only the tip of the iceberg: if Americans only knew how bad it was, they'd be very angry." They're on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so are in a position to know at least more than their colleagues, an…

> Is all of congress tapped? All the governors? Snowden hinted at this. What the fuck is going on in my country? I'm going to assume the worst, which would be that the NSA is used as a tool of blackmail by nefarious parties whom the NSA relies on. Key House and Senate members put in a good word for the NSA and then they get some "free" information on their opponents, at which point they convince their opponents to "t…

They are blackmailing and targeting anyone that is in the way to their goal of total surveillance.

This hasn't gotten enough attention:

US targets lie-detector coaches following Edward Snowden affair

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1297622/us-targets-li...

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#26

Post by discostrings »

jnbiche wrote: post #10
LoganCale wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll be kicked out of the committees that allow them access to that classified data and will be unable to do anything further to try and fight these things.

So their precious committee appointment is more important than their oath? Really, if that's all that's holding them back, then I've lost any respect I have for them. As things stand, they've been able to do very little to "fight these things" even sitting on the committee. What we need right now is to know the full extent of the damage. And they swore an oath to protect the constitution. Any fool can see what an exi…

Perhaps they believe that gaining the necessary amount of public attention and support requires these things to be revealed slowly and to consume many news cycles. I would argue that the pace things have been proceeding at has been perfect for those who generally don't pay attention to get a sense of how important an issue this is.

If this had all been released at once, it would have been much easier to sweep under the rug, and those who generally reflexively defend their political parties might not have had to really confront the issue. They could be proceeding this way secure a better chance of victory.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#27

Post by argumentum »

jnbiche wrote: post #22
argumentum wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you even read the post you replied to ..

Of course I did. My stand is this: what the US needs now, possibly more than any time before in its history, is for the full extent of the surveillance and other activities by the NSA and other IC members to be revealed to the public. What happens next year in the Senate Intelligence Committee is much less important.

How are you so sure they know as much (or the same info) as Snowden/Greenwald et al. will eventually release? If they don't, there is no value in getting kicked out of the committee, as they may get insights that we aren't going to get from whistleblowers.

How do you know they aren't playing Lincoln to your Thaddeus Stevens?

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#28

Post by LoganCale »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #19
LoganCale wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't. But a large number of people seem to not care, because they're already so used to putting every thought that pops into their head online where everyone can see it.

Right, but this isn't just about teeny-boppers posting pics of themselves partaking in underage drinking on Facebook. This is about journalists being intimidated by government representatives if they start writing an article on their private computer that is embarrassing to a particular senator. Sorry, but that's in a totally different baseball league.

I agree absolutely. But try explaining that to people whose immediate response to this every time it comes up is "I ain't got nothing to hide, if Obama wants to read my texts he can go ahead and be bored."

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#29

Post by snowwrestler »

throwawaykf02 wrote: post #21
bengrunfeld wrote: post #4

As a new immigrant to the USA, I am simply appalled at the infringement of privacy that is being carried out by the NSA and the government. In Australia, we learned that the 1st amendment protected the Freedom of Speech of every American. How can you have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press when every private communication of citizens and reporters alike are being scrutinized by secret agencies in the governme…

Hasn't "Freedom of Speech" always been about public speech? You alluded to it yourself when you said "freedom or the press". I don't see what invasion of privacy has to do with freedom of speech as the constitution means it.

And this is the crux of the matter. Technology today allows intrusions into our privacy that do not harm our ability to speak publicly.

In the 1700s, the only way for the government to read your papers was to take them away from you--harming your use of them.

Today they can extract the entire contents without disturbing your use at all. Reading and restriction have been separated.

It's a new situation and there will be big fights as the law catches up. This is not historically unprecedented though; technology has frequently caused disruptions in the law. That's how copyright came about, for instance--the printing press meant that original content was no longer protected by the need to hire 100 monks to make a copy.

Re: Declassified Documents Prove NSA Is Tapping the Internet

#30

Post by [deleted] »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #19
LoganCale wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't. But a large number of people seem to not care, because they're already so used to putting every thought that pops into their head online where everyone can see it.

Right, but this isn't just about teeny-boppers posting pics of themselves partaking in underage drinking on Facebook. This is about journalists being intimidated by government representatives if they start writing an article on their private computer that is embarrassing to a particular senator. Sorry, but that's in a totally different baseball league.

[deleted]
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