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The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

theatlantic.com

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Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#21

Post by ledge »

diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

Well they certainly aren't on my side, and I don't want to be on their side. They aggregate and analyze data used to conduct drone strikes, spy on the world indiscriminately, and assist brutal agencies like the DEA in destroying the lives of millions of innocent Americans.

Is it a paranoid delusion if you're a drug dealer to think that the NSA is out to get you? Not anymore. What about a drug user? What about a file-sharer? A child porn viewer? You might not be any of these things, but a huge portion of the American citizenry is, and I'd argue they're not doing anything wrong. Sorry but I'm not going to just take it on faith that the NSA is on 'our side'.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#22

Post by apalmer »

diminoten wrote: post #20
jivatmanx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Alexander believes that terrorists live amongst us, trying to implement Sharia and create a Caliphate. To fight this, he needs to "Collect it all". It's just as important to understand his motivation as it is to understand ours, and assess the reasonableness of each in comparison to the other, comparing our current situation to others in history that were similar, and the result they had.

Firstly, does he seriously believe that, or are you just demonizing him because it'll get you agreement? If he said something to that effect, that's concerning, but if he hasn't, can we stick to things which have actually happened? And secondly, is not the motivation to stop terrorists in the US from harming US citizens a noble goal, in theory? Now granted, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our privacy to get that done,…

Very few movers and shakers in the history of the world are intrinsically 'evil' in their own judgement. Whether Alexander is purposefully trying to harm the US or not is immaterial.

Agree with you on the charicterization going on here, its one thing to feel his motivations are a given way, another to imply he has public made statements indicating this to be fact.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#23

Post by knowaveragejoe »

jivatmanx wrote: post #16
diminoten wrote: post #3

Commandeering implies control, and the NSA does not have control. No one has "control" over the Internet. I also don't like this, "us vs. them" rhetoric that this story has turned some people towards, where the NSA are the unequivocal bad guys and we, the "little people", are the unequivocal good guys. That's a great way to get absolutely nothing done. The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (B…

Keith Alexander believes that terrorists live amongst us, trying to implement Sharia and create a Caliphate. To fight this, he needs to "Collect it all". It's just as important to understand his motivation as it is to understand ours, and assess the reasonableness of each in comparison to the other, comparing our current situation to others in history that were similar, and the result they had.

Source?

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#24

Post by apalmer »

diminoten wrote: post #19
jacquesm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The NSA is, despite everything we're being told by some people (Bruce), on our side. Define 'our side' please. I'm not convinced of that. And if you take the temporal element into account you might very well find that the NSA is even against 'your side' in the longer term. Information gathered indiscriminately has a tendency to concentrate on the bad parts. If I vacuum up all your communications over the last 20 ye…

The potential of abuse for guns is pretty damn large, but some would argue that the US was founded on the idea of gun ownership. There's a lot of speculation about what could happen, but if we look only at what has happened, people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs. The language of the above article seems too adversarial to be effective at getting anything done. If we c…

'There's a lot of speculation about what could happen, but if we look only at what has happened, people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs.'

How can you possibly know this? In fact I would argue as much as we 'know' anything at all related to the NSA program we know that it has lead to interventions. The NSA claims this surveillance has been instrumental to stopping 'dozens' of terrorist plots, which would mean by definition people ARE being snatched off the streets because of the NSA monitoring programs.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#25

Post by swombat »

If Google, Apple, Microsoft, Yahoo and Facebook simultaneously came out and published all statistics that the government is not allowing them to publish, and declared that they will continue to publish those as they come in and be entirely transparent about the tracking that the NSA asked of them, would their CEOs all go to jail, doing enormous damage to the stock market?

I don't think so. I think the NSA would fold if those five cards were played simultaneously.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#26

Post by rhizome »

S_A_P wrote: post #14

While I understand that Lavabit and others have taken a stand, Im not sure that I would call going out of business fighting. I see this as an NSA victory. If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives? I would argue that a shut down is exactly what the NSA wanted from lavabit. Of course the flip side is that you don't want to be c…

A fundamental principle of Judo is, "don't be there when someone wants to hit you."

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#27

Post by ge0rg »

S_A_P wrote: post #14

While I understand that Lavabit and others have taken a stand, Im not sure that I would call going out of business fighting. I see this as an NSA victory. If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives? I would argue that a shut down is exactly what the NSA wanted from lavabit. Of course the flip side is that you don't want to be c…

If they could shut down all of these niche secure email businesses, what option will people have but to use less private alternatives?

I think Ladar Levison answered that question, implicitly, in his shutdown announcement: "I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States."

It is high time to provide secure services hosted in countries without secret surveillance courts, or maybe even in countries where law enforcement has bigger problems to fight than "Internet crime".

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#28

Post by diminoten »

apalmer wrote: post #24
diminoten wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The potential of abuse for guns is pretty damn large, but some would argue that the US was founded on the idea of gun ownership. There's a lot of speculation about what could happen, but if we look only at what has happened, people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs. The language of the above article seems too adversarial to be effective at getting anything done. If we c…

'There's a lot of speculation about what could happen, but if we look only at what has happened, people aren't being snatched up off the streets because of the NSA's monitoring programs.' How can you possibly know this? In fact I would argue as much as we 'know' anything at all related to the NSA program we know that it has lead to interventions. The NSA claims this surveillance has been instrumental to stopping 'doz…

I know it for the same reason I know unicorns and leprechauns don't exist - there is no credible evidence supporting it.

Ignore and refuse to participate in wild speculation until evidence appears. That's how we have to operate, lest we succumb to every conspiratorial fantasy the Internet can come up with.

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#29

Post by rhizome »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #23
jivatmanx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keith Alexander believes that terrorists live amongst us, trying to implement Sharia and create a Caliphate. To fight this, he needs to "Collect it all". It's just as important to understand his motivation as it is to understand ours, and assess the reasonableness of each in comparison to the other, comparing our current situation to others in history that were similar, and the result they had.

Source?

Black Hat Conference, a week and a half ago:

"Terrorists driven by a desire to 'create a caliphate' of sharia law in the middle east continued to plot attacks. 'Terrorists live among us,' he said"

GP conflates these statements to imply that those among us want to create Sharia or whatever among us, but Alexander did say the words.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-keith-alexa...

Re: The NSA Is Commandeering the Internet

#30

Post by diminoten »

apalmer wrote: post #22
diminoten wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, does he seriously believe that, or are you just demonizing him because it'll get you agreement? If he said something to that effect, that's concerning, but if he hasn't, can we stick to things which have actually happened? And secondly, is not the motivation to stop terrorists in the US from harming US citizens a noble goal, in theory? Now granted, we shouldn't have to sacrifice our privacy to get that done,…

Very few movers and shakers in the history of the world are intrinsically 'evil' in their own judgement. Whether Alexander is purposefully trying to harm the US or not is immaterial. Agree with you on the charicterization going on here, its one thing to feel his motivations are a given way, another to imply he has public made statements indicating this to be fact.

I don't much care what Alexander judges himself to be, I'm talking about his actions and motivations for those actions. He's not trying to destroy the US, he's trying to keep it safe. He is possibly misguided or flat out wrong about how to do that, but it's not as if he's actively working to harm US citizens, as many people here would claim.
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