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Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

paulgraham.com

21–30 of 99 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#22
post #8

> "Politics, like religion, is a topic where there's no threshold of expertise for expressing an opinion." I agree that this is how people tend to see it. But it isn't really true. Like JavaScript or auto mechanics or animal husbandry, there is indeed a threshold of expertise for expressing a meaningful opinion. The value of somebody else's commentary on political issues is pretty much directly proportional to their…

> The value of somebody else's commentary on political issues is pretty much directly proportional to their understanding of the political system and their command of objective facts.

I think this is objectively wrong for the specific case of politics; unlike, say, analytical chemistry, politics has an active opinion on how each of us live our lives and can't be "left to the expert" (the latter being what the political and legal experts would love everyone to accept).

Concrete counter-examples to your claim:

1) Does a homosexual couple with no knowledge of US marriage law not have a valid opinion on whether they should be allowed to marry?

2) Did poorly educated blacks or women need training in the subtleties of constitutional law before they could have a valid opinion on universal suffrage?

Politics, by its nature, shoves itself in everyone's face. Thus everyone has a legitimate basis on which to argue about how they are to be governed, even if they are ignorant of the details of the governance mechanism.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#23
post #19

> A scientist isn't committed to believing in natural selection in the same way a bibilical literalist is committed to rejecting it. All he's committed to is following the evidence wherever it leads. At the risk of responding out of identity, but also with the hope of contributing constructively despite having some identity at stake: A literal interpretation of the bible doesn't preclude accepting natural selection a…

It's quite possible to see flamewars when discussing javascript, e.g. ember vs angular, OO-style or functional, etc. Or the classic emacs vs vim. So I don't think argumentativeness is exclusive to politics and religion by any means.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#25
First: notice how we are all expressing our opinions :)

I think what religion and politics have in common is that they become part of people's identity, and people can never have a fruitful argument about something that's part of their identity. By definition they're partisan.

(NOTE: I'm not rigorously defining the word "governance" in this response, I can expand on my meaning further if people are interested)

Paul Graham is on to something in this essay. I think, however, that Carl Jung pinpointed the exact mechanism with far more accuracy.

Politics and Religion (for many people) in Jung's system of thought are often vehicles of "transferance", or, the transferring of one's spiritual principle or governance principle to a receiver (a priest, or politician, or guru) because people's psyche's are largely unconscious and rarely question or examine their own identity (consciousness, although Jung has a much deeper definition of identity). People "transfer" to the closest external match for that which their unsconscious wishes to have integrated.

Paul's statement about it being a part of their identity is inaccurate because it's actually the opposite. If the person in question were not transferring their spiritual principle it would actually be an integrated peice of their identity and consciousness. There would no longer be an imperative to defend the vehicle that carries such an important peice of their "self". As people integrate more of their transfers and projections they have less and less need to justify their existence because that existence is self-contained rather than fragmented.

Understanding that the spiritual and governance principles within the psyche are actually subjective and not objective experiences is a sign of someone that has truly identified those components. I say "truly identified" not because truth is defined by an authority or natural principle but because the person has identified the truth of it in relationship to their own non-physical (mental/psychological) experience.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#26
Where politics really differs from JavaScript is that we are taught from a young age that it is important to hold strong opinions about it even if we know nothing about it. Flaunting one's ignorance is celebrated as civic engagement. Hell, when politics comes up at holiday dinners, my family gets more worked up if I recuse myself from discussion than if I say something that violates their most cherished beliefs.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#27

I think his 'theory' that discussions have more potential to be divisive when they involve our identity is dead on. His advice to 'keep your identity small', follows on from that premise well. Many people let their identity get polluted by what they do for a living to such an extent that they find it very difficult to cope when that is taken from them. I have always been opinionated - I'm analytical and I enjoy formi…

> I think it is fair to say that belief (or disbelief) in God is a foundational human issue.

I think it is quite a bit of a stretch to call something a foundational human issue when there is no consensus agreement as to what the words involved even mean, even among members of the same sect. If you could define the term 'God' in a meaningful way which all humans agreed upon, then we could maybe start to discuss whether belief in God were a foundational human issue. As it stands currently, the phrase 'God exists' is nothing but a shibboleth.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#28

I think his 'theory' that discussions have more potential to be divisive when they involve our identity is dead on. His advice to 'keep your identity small', follows on from that premise well. Many people let their identity get polluted by what they do for a living to such an extent that they find it very difficult to cope when that is taken from them. I have always been opinionated - I'm analytical and I enjoy formi…

I am a believer, so I don't know if same is true for non-believers. Well, everyone is a non-believer in something that others believe. Assuming you don't believe in, say, Isis, do you think that non-belief becomes part of your identity?

This is an excellent point. I find it interesting that so many things that I use in my own life for orientation are not even noticed by a broad section of humanity. Philosophy, technology, religion, politics, these are often monumental issues to certain people while rarely even noticed by others. It's interesting that the human experience is so diverse especially intellectually. It's hard to escape the belief that what I follow is IMPORTANT though. As well as the follow up thoughts of "If only more people paid more attention to X the world would be a better place...".

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#29
When going slightly against common sense, people tend to randomly add Chinese quotes, usually from Lao-tzu, and it is almost always a bad idea. But here this text is vibrating strongly with one of the core idea of daoism, it is impressive.

It could be found more closely in Zhuangzi or even Lizi. These guys were living in a time when many have been killed for their ideas, and many had strong beliefs. Their solution for survival was to be an empty vase, a useless tool.

A good example is the tree: a straight trunk is the sure path to death for a pine tree, while if you are twisted in a way that makes you useless you survive much longer.

There is also this empty boat story. If a big vessel sees a small boat in her way the captain will shout at the small boat, but let the small boat be empty and the captain will just move around.

Daoism is all about being this empty boat. And it is it's limits: society also need people with strong belief and ready to die for them.

Just take slavery; it is a moral belief and duty to be against slavery. Even if by some rational reasoning slavery was proven a better solution than freedom, we would still have to stand against it, and some have died for this moral belief.

So I think I cannot fully agree here.

Edit: Or to be more precise, there is a limit to the reduction of one's identity. Maybe this limit is just that common identity we all share: humanity.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#30

This was mentioned in the thread: "HN is Becoming 2005 Slashdot" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6157485 ) It makes for an interesting read concerning speculation as to why HN is becoming less and less technical over time, and more about politics. Technical issues and articles take time to read, digest, and understand. It takes a minimum level of expertise to be able to comment usefully on technical issues, so…

And is why upvotes in the first shouldn't be weighted heavier. That only promotes easy-to-digest content.
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