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Ask HN: India == bad devs?

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Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#21

Post by EliRivers »

sirwanqutbi wrote: post #18
EliRivers wrote: post #17

It does seem to be awfully common in Indian schools to teach C++ from before 1998 (i.e. before formalising of the first standard), considered simply wrong today, using tools made 25 years ago (Turbo C++ for DOS is popular). Those taught this end up hitting the workplace knowing incorrect C++ and knowing how to use a 25 year old tool for DOS. I've no doubt they can learn modern C++ and modern tools, but it certainly c…

Meh, we had to learn Pascal here in the UK (2005). In my opinion, learning C++ early on is better than jumping on a bandwagon language like PHP, and expect to learn JavaScript with relative ease. I agree with Kohanz & API ... outsourcing companies throw peanuts at developers and expect quality code.

The problem isn't learning C++. The problem is paying a fortune to be taught some kind of franken-language from two decades ago in the belief that it's what employers mean when they say "C++" on the job spec.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#22

Post by sirwanqutbi »

EliRivers wrote: post #21
sirwanqutbi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, we had to learn Pascal here in the UK (2005). In my opinion, learning C++ early on is better than jumping on a bandwagon language like PHP, and expect to learn JavaScript with relative ease. I agree with Kohanz & API ... outsourcing companies throw peanuts at developers and expect quality code.

The problem isn't learning C++. The problem is paying a fortune to be taught some kind of franken-language from two decades ago in the belief that it's what employers mean when they say "C++" on the job spec.

What, who pays a fortune ? .. most indian developers are self-taught geeks who pick stuff up easily. C++ is the mother of all modern languages and I suspect job specification that mention "C++" is an indication of that.

With that I've noticed Indian developers work with much more languages than a developer here, who 'focuses' or 'specialises' on one or two languages/code stacks.

My only conclusion to the notion that outsourced jobs yield low quality code is that companies DO NOT PAY ENOUGH. Pay more and you get better project management, better project scope, and future proof code.

In the 21st century sweatshop workers should not exist ! that goes for the IT industry too.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#23

Post by harrytuttle »

shock wrote: post #16
harrytuttle wrote: post #15

There's nothing wrong with the skills (you'll find similarly skilled people locally), but the communication and the pride in the work sucks from experience. This is true regardless of the remote culture: it's universal with outsourcing.

> This is true regardless of the remote culture: it's universal with outsourcing. That's bullshit. It just means you didn't work with the right people. I've led remote teams (not indian teams) which got very high praise from the US management.

That was probably because they were cheap rather than efficient.

I've worked with three large outsourcers over the years and it's been nothing but carnage. We'd have been better off hiring less local people at a higher wage.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#24

Post by impendia »

tubbzor wrote: post #11
eksith wrote: post #2

This isn't from HN, but I've noticed an implicit bias against devs from South and Southeast Asia (can't speak for China). On my resume, I go by the shortened form of my first name, not "eksith" and that was a conscious decision after putting my full name resulted in very few calls and emails. I'm not sure if that has to do with a perception of talent or simply a presumption of a language barrier, since I've also seen…

I remember reading a study (it is pretty generic and I'm sure done many times), where a research group put a stereotypical 'white name' on a resume and sent it out, then put a stereotypical 'black name' on the same resume and sent it out. I'm sure you see where this is going in that the 'white' resume received many more calls and interviews. This bias is unfortunate but pretty prevalent in most organizations, and is…

It is possible to test yourself for such biases:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#25

Post by OnyeaboAduba »

Speaking as someone who just hired a developer I steered away from India and the whole overseas market in general because I wanted someone locally who I could speak with In person.Some conversation in my opinion have to happen in person.My friend just had a app completed by a Indian developer quality work from what I can tell but time barrier slowed completion of app considerably.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#26

Post by shubhamjain »

api wrote: post #4

If there's a "India == bad devs" stereotype, it's more the result of cheap American outsourcers trying to get bargain basement prices on Indian dev labor and then being unsatisfied with what they get. Sorry but you give cheap, you get cheap. No form of software development is a rote, repetitive process that you can just drag in anyone who can fog glass off the street and sit them down at an assembly line to do. It's…

The problem with these outsourcers is they that they expect Indian programmers to work out quality code while paying They don't realize its unfair to pay a good programmer much lower (even considering the Purchasing Power Gap) than one in US and bear the fruits of hiring a bad dev.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#27

Post by phaus »

impendia wrote: post #24
tubbzor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a study (it is pretty generic and I'm sure done many times), where a research group put a stereotypical 'white name' on a resume and sent it out, then put a stereotypical 'black name' on the same resume and sent it out. I'm sure you see where this is going in that the 'white' resume received many more calls and interviews. This bias is unfortunate but pretty prevalent in most organizations, and is…

It is possible to test yourself for such biases: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

That "test" is completely ridiculous and meaningless.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#28

Post by mknappen »

aviraldg wrote: post #9
byoung2 wrote: post #7

A lot of businesses would prefer someone local because of timezones, even if the overseas dev is more skilled. For a startup, for example, it is advantageous to get a bunch of devs in a room to bounce ideas around. It is harder to schedule Skype calls at odd hours and get the same effect.

Doesn't quite apply, because I'm comparing "Remote (India)" against just "Remote"

The time zone problem is indeed the cold water here. Even when folks are working remotely, it's faster and easier to work with people who have similar office hours. "Remote" could be a time zone over and worth an email. "Remote(India)", however, means project questions sit unanswered because I am asleep. If more information is needed to provide clarification, even a simple matter, normally settled in 60 minutes across roughly aligning time zones, can take 36 hours to work out.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#29

Post by EliRivers »

sirwanqutbi wrote: post #22
EliRivers wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't learning C++. The problem is paying a fortune to be taught some kind of franken-language from two decades ago in the belief that it's what employers mean when they say "C++" on the job spec.

What, who pays a fortune ? .. most indian developers are self-taught geeks who pick stuff up easily. C++ is the mother of all modern languages and I suspect job specification that mention "C++" is an indication of that. With that I've noticed Indian developers work with much more languages than a developer here, who 'focuses' or 'specialises' on one or two languages/code stacks. My only conclusion to the notion that…

most indian developers are self-taught geeks who pick stuff up easily.

I believe that to be just plain wrong. I suspect you're taking a small sample of people and extrapolating that. India contains a great many universities and technical colleges teaching people programming. These places charge money.

I see this blindness a lot here on HN; HN is a small group of motivated technologists. The majority of the world's programmers don't read HN. They don't read programming books. They don't think about other programming languages. They don't learn new things by themselves.

C++ is the mother of all modern languages and I suspect job specification that mention "C++" is an indication of that.

This also is simply incorrect. I see a vast number of job specs without C++ on them. If C++ is being put on job specs just because it's "the mother of all modern languages", whatever that means (and how exactly is C++ the mother of modern C, Objective-C, Ruby, PHP, Perl and a whope bunch of other languages?), do the job specs without C++ on them come from some other universe where C++ doesn't exist? No. They come from jobs where C++ isn't required.

Re: Ask HN: India == bad devs?

#30

Post by avemuri »

I think most people do make that assumption subconsciously. Hard to blame them, the signal to noise ratio is awful so it's probably easier to not bother.

Relatedly, my experience has been people demand cheap if you're from India even if they do think you're skilled. It's the geographical version of the "but it only took you 10 minutes" argument. This does bug me.

My advice to you is to hide your location at least until they see your portfolio/github first. And be firm about pricing. Maybe a modest discount so you don't lose tiebreaker decisions, but don't fall into the trap of anchoring your worth to geography.

For context, I spent a decade in the US before returning to India and have freelanced in both places. I do have degrees from a couple of fancy US universities that partially address the signaling issue.

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