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On Being Black in China

theatlantic.com

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: On Being Black in China

#21
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

temphn, I wouldn't have weighed in if I didn't already know the history. Yes, you can see those ~65M deaths in world population statistics, that's how bad it was. China had gone through 200 years of instability, strife and suffering by the time Deng took over. Since then, things have gotten better along many dimensions. However, pollution has also gotten worse. Can I mention that without mentioning the sins of Mao? I…

I think we need to mention the sins of Mao quite a bit more before we're in danger of Godwining.

You know some history. Most people who are reading that Atlantic article don't have this context at all. This is because people get their history from movies, and Hollywood chooses to make movies like the Karate Kid remake (about anti-black racism in China) or this Red Dawn farce rather than movies about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, about the consequences of being "idealistic" and "ideological".

"Ideological" is bad. It's not good. It led to a lot of people dying. And the support for "oppressed peoples" that the OP thinks so much of is intimately tied to the rhetoric of communism, which is invariably and horrifically belied by the reality. To repeat said rhetoric uncritically is to bury those people again. Their deaths were denied in speeches at the time and they are glossed over in writing today. This is wrong. We need to remember them.

So yeah, unfortunately I don't think you can hold up the Maoist era as comparatively positive in any substantive regard without acknowledging that said act is morally equivalent to "Mussolini/Hitler made the trains run on time."

And the thing is - Mao didn't even make the trains run on time. He destroyed China to such an extent that people were forced to eat each other's children to survive.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/books/horror-of-a-hidden-c...

  For the party newspaper to tell people that it was good 
  for them to eat less at a time when it was also spinning 
  fantasies about the bounty being engendered by the Great 
  Leap was a relatively small, if telling, irony. At the 
  larger, horrific center of Mr. Becker's account is the 
  widespread resort among the Chinese people to that most 
  sickening form of desperation: cannibalism, the selling of 
  human flesh on the market, the swapping of children so 
  people could use them for food without committing the 
  additional sin of eating their own.

  It has of course been known for many years that the Great 
  Leap produced a terrible calamity in China lasting from 
  roughly 1959 to 1962. But Mr. Becker, who is the Beijing 
  bureau chief of The South China Morning Post, has written 
  the most compelling and complete account of that calamity, 
  describing it systematically as it affected the 
  countryside, the cities and the immense network of camps 
  for ''rightists'' and other political prisoners that China 
  maintained at the time.
I would argue that these kinds of things are much more important in forming a picture of Mao's China than whether he once gave lip service to MLK. If 99% of people who came to that page already knew the term "laogai", fine, one could arguably move on to a second topic. But we're a long ways away from successfully communicating these high order bits.

Re: On Being Black in China

#22

I've been asking for this for years, but if anybody can come up with a method (website?) for me to figure out how black people are seen in different countries and regions, that would help me a lot. Seems like the only way to tell is to fly somewhere, then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was. Racist heatmaps?

"how black people are seen" - i don't think it can be answered by one number on the scale from 1 to 10. For example, Russians are pretty racist, nationalistic chauvinistic, antisemitic ... you name it, basically Equal Opportunity Haters ... and there are a lot of disrespectful jokes about black people as well. On the other side - we drank a lot with the black students we had at our University and at other places and…

Reminds me of this old joke:

A CIA spy is on his first day scouting Moscow. Fluent in Russian, he is confident of blending into the crowd. First, he stops at a store to get an apple. The lady there gives him a big smile, "Morning Mr American, how can I help you?" Shocked, he quietly buys an apple. Next stop, an old lady on a park bench. "Morning ma'am, can I have the time please?" "Sure, Mr American, it's 9.15." He's really worried. Is his disguise that thin? He meets a cop and asks directions. Having received the usual "Certainly Mr American, it's the third block on your left," he asks, "Excuse me, how do you know I'm from the US?" "That's easy," replies the policeman, "you're black."

Re: On Being Black in China

#23
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

> First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine.

Sir, that famine was in large part due to movements commandeered by Mao - such as the Great Leap Forward which completely decimated Chinese farming and agriculture.

Re: On Being Black in China

#24

I've been asking for this for years, but if anybody can come up with a method (website?) for me to figure out how black people are seen in different countries and regions, that would help me a lot. Seems like the only way to tell is to fly somewhere, then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was. Racist heatmaps?

Hey, I'm building something that aims to answer exactly these kinds of questions. It's still early in development, right now there is actually a site-breaking bug causing a ton of pages to timeout :( , but I'm hopeful that in a year from now you'll be able to find answers to all sorts of questions like that. It's called www.istorical.com, and it's a site dedicated to sharing information about what it's like to live in any city or country. It's got user-submitted q&a about what it's like to live there, user-submitted videos showing what a city or country is like, and very soon it will have user-submitted AMA's from travelers, expats, and just people who live in a city or country. I haven't quite taken off my dev hat and put on the marketing hat yet, but look forward to your wish being granted (hopefully).

Relevant (but unanswered, unfortunately) questions on the site I'm building:

http://www.istorical.com/countries/china/questions/57724

http://www.istorical.com/countries/china/questions/57733

Re: On Being Black in China

#25
For me living in China as a white American student in the 1980s was to wake up to minority prejudice. That is to be treated different, sometimes better, sometimes worse than native Chinese. Its something I had not felt in the US. An amusing thing was is that I could understand what people would say about me in public because they assumed most foreigners did not understand Chinese. Or to visit a tourist site and read the prices in English ten times higher than in Chinese.

Re: On Being Black in China

#26

I grew up on the Canadian Prairie. The only black people in the entire city were part of the professional football team. At school, the few black kids were tall and very athletic. It may be a stereotype but it was real in my city.

Are you certain that you knew every black student at your school or just the popular ones? If there are few blacks it makes sense that the ones you'd notice would be tall and athletic as these are qualities that tend to engender popularity for school children. Did you conduct a formal or even semi-formal survey? I've heard similar suggestions to this before and they rarely conform to reality. This sounds more likely to be a case of conformation bias.

Re: On Being Black in China

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"how black people are seen" - i don't think it can be answered by one number on the scale from 1 to 10. For example, Russians are pretty racist, nationalistic chauvinistic, antisemitic ... you name it, basically Equal Opportunity Haters ... and there are a lot of disrespectful jokes about black people as well. On the other side - we drank a lot with the black students we had at our University and at other places and…

Reminds me of this old joke: A CIA spy is on his first day scouting Moscow. Fluent in Russian, he is confident of blending into the crowd. First, he stops at a store to get an apple. The lady there gives him a big smile, "Morning Mr American, how can I help you?" Shocked, he quietly buys an apple. Next stop, an old lady on a park bench. "Morning ma'am, can I have the time please?" "Sure, Mr American, it's 9.15." He's…

Yep, many years ago a friend who just moved to VA near Langley was a bit surprised seeing first time a couple of black guys in suits shopping in specialized Russian food store and speaking perfect Russian :)

Re: On Being Black in China

#29

I grew up on the Canadian Prairie. The only black people in the entire city were part of the professional football team. At school, the few black kids were tall and very athletic. It may be a stereotype but it was real in my city.

Are you certain that you knew every black student at your school or just the popular ones? If there are few blacks it makes sense that the ones you'd notice would be tall and athletic as these are qualities that tend to engender popularity for school children. Did you conduct a formal or even semi-formal survey? I've heard similar suggestions to this before and they rarely conform to reality. This sounds more likely…

When you go to a school with very few black people, noticing one is already surprising enough that you won't miss many through confirmation bias.

Re: On Being Black in China

#30
post #18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. I…

> "Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. First, the huge majority of those deaths were due to famine. Second, it was in a country in great turmoil, civil war, and a revolution (regime change, if you prefer). In places where such things happen -- as opposed to an country with a stable political climate like the US, people die (including by execution). Someone from a stable coun…

The real civil war, revolution, and turmoil pre-date most of those deaths. Mao killed people during his rule by creating unnecessary turmoil and revolution.

One does not pin civil war deaths on Lincoln. But if Lincoln had led the country into ruin and mass death after the war was over, he would be blamed for those deaths, and rightly so. Thus with Mao. The People's Republic was established in 1949. The civil war at that point was over, no serious external enemies threatened, and the government's control was solid. What followed is not justifiable.

As for Hitler, he was not voted by a majority of Germans. The Nazis peaked at about 1/3rd of the vote. Hitler became chancellor through political maneuvering, not majority support. He did kind of obtain power legitimately, but don't confuse that with being voted in by a majority.

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