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Dwarf Fortress in 2013

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Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#21

Post by otikik »

samstave wrote: post #13
qznc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, flat. A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast. This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do. [0] http://xkcd.com/1015/

Or if by vertical he means running face first into a wall... Upvotes for both though...

It's a wall with electrified spikes on top. And armed guards instructed to shoot on sight. And rabid dogs. And behind the wall there are other walls.

I tried to start the game 5 times. The first 3 I could not even start a game. The 4th one I followed a tutorial and was able to start, and nothing else. The fifth time, I found Captnduck's excellent video tutorials ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koZUS2h-Yzc ), and I was finally able to break into the game.

Then they added a whole layer of complexity to the military (with a lot of new UI quirks) and I just stopped playing.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#22

Post by cobrophy »

sgrove wrote: post #9
cpeterso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are just curious about the game, there are many "Let's Play Dwarf Fortress" videos on YouTube. Expert players talk through the game features and progression.

Any recommendations for non-players looking to get sucked into whatever it is that makes it so intriguing?

I like Captain Duck who has a bunch of tutorials and Lets Plays along with a soothing Dutch accent. http://www.youtube.com/user/captnduck

To get a great flavour of dwarf fortress in a longer written form. You can't go wrong with boatmurdered, which is a game where each player took a year (I think) of playing the fortress and then handed on to the next player to pick up the pieces and carry on. http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#23

Post by jayrobin »

sgrove wrote: post #9
cpeterso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are just curious about the game, there are many "Let's Play Dwarf Fortress" videos on YouTube. Expert players talk through the game features and progression.

Any recommendations for non-players looking to get sucked into whatever it is that makes it so intriguing?

Tim Denee's two infographic/comics on his [1]Bronzemurder and [2]Oilfurnace fortresses were what finally convinced me to take the plunge.

I knew basically nothing of the game, so found a random [3]step-by-step tutorial and actually did pretty well until I accidentally killed the mayor, several other nobles and half my standing army at the grand opening of the new great drawbridge due to a...Minor malfunction.

The biggest three tips I can give are:

A. get a texture pack. I'm sure many people love the ASCII, but actually seeing dwarf and goblin icons removed one more thing for me to learn at the beginning.

B. download Dwarf Therapist. It's a great external UI for managing the roles of your dwarves.

C. don't be afraid to fail, because you will. Often.

[1]http://bronzemurder.timdenee.com/

[2]http://oilfurnace.timdenee.com/

[3]http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/02/09/the-complete-and-u... (warning, may be out of date!)

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#24

Post by axefrog »

exDM69 wrote: post #14
sage_joch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

"There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span"

No. Your assertion is that the only likely improvement to the UI would be a simple gamepad-mashing interface. DF is difficult even compared to programs with a complicated UI and games with a "normal" steep learning curve. Not wanting to battle through an insane UI does not equate one to a "soda guzzling teen".

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#25

Post by mushishi »

axefrog wrote: post #19
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

Haven't been following much of Dwarf Fortress, either, but according to the post, I'm confident that they care. For instance, the 1.0 version should have a more consistent interface, tutorials and context-sensitive help menus.

It's probably just that there are plenty more things that they care more about than revamping totally the UI.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#26

Post by kaoD »

axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

It's not the ASCII interface. I love ASCII art, and they managed to pull a high information density. You have graphic tile sets too. Although fan-made, these have a great quality.

The problem is the inconsistent input system. The same task uses different shortcuts in each menu, which makes it hard to remember. Even selecting rectangular regions of the world is done in a particular way depending on what you are doing.

Inconsistency is awful for users.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#27

Post by derleth »

axefrog wrote: post #19
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

> I hate bad UIs

You hate UIs you don't like. Which is a tautology. The interesting part here is that you've managed to convince yourself that UIs you don't like are objectively bad, and that anyone who does like such UIs is wrong in some factual way, as opposed to being 'wrong' in the purely subjective way everyone who disagrees with us on a matter of taste is.

Go too far in this direction and you end up with Jef Raskin, who disdained configurability because he thought he knew better than the people actually using the software how software should work.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#28

Post by dekz »

jayrobin wrote: post #23
sgrove wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any recommendations for non-players looking to get sucked into whatever it is that makes it so intriguing?

Tim Denee's two infographic/comics on his [1]Bronzemurder and [2]Oilfurnace fortresses were what finally convinced me to take the plunge. I knew basically nothing of the game, so found a random [3]step-by-step tutorial and actually did pretty well until I accidentally killed the mayor, several other nobles and half my standing army at the grand opening of the new great drawbridge due to a...Minor malfunction. The big…

That bronzemurder story is fantastic, I started playing DF the other week and although I move and plan quite slowly, it's very fun.

I'm actually building on a pregenerated world right now where there are 2 cliff faces and waterfalls across from each other. Aquifer's are really annoying though.

Do you know of any texture packs that don't make the map 'zoom' level extremely high? Most of the texture packs seem to be made for large and specific resolutions, I play a smaller window mode on mba (1366x768).

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#29

Post by morsch »

fleshgolem wrote: post #17
alex_c wrote: post #7

For anyone unfamiliar with Dwarf Fortress and wondering what all the fuss is about, I recommend the classic 'Boatmurdered' chronicles: http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/ It's a fairly long read, but as always when Dwarf Fortress is involved, it's well worth the effort.

It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole dimension less than it does now. Still a great read though

I loved reading Boatmurdered many months ago; is there anything of similar quality that reflects the current state of affairs in DF?

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#30

Post by dspillett »

axefrog wrote: post #19
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

> I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

Would people care to experience it if they could? I've always assumed with this (and a number of other things in life) that being a bit of a niche interest (or in this case a lot of a niche interest) in part creates the niche interest. There have been many rogue-a-likes with more modern interfaces but they have either not attracted or not managed to keep up the interest that this one has. Perhaps it is a nostalgia thing, perhaps it is a "nerd" thing; what-ever it is it works for them and their audience and changing the game to appeal to a larger audience might both fail to do so and make the existing fans wander off (and make it less enjoyable for the developers to work on: they seem to be getting quite a kick out of their baby and its current fans and don't want to lose that).

The comparison some make with minecraft on the "being a bit niche creating a niche" thing is quite fair, and this "if you were more like that you might have a much larger audience" comments perfectly valid, but minecraft's niche being an order of magnitude or few bigger might be in part due to luck (right thing, right time, critical mass didn't hit to early or too late, ...) rather than just the relative prettiness and intuitiveness.

Caveat: I've played neither Dwarf Fortress nor Minecraft, so I may not really have a clue what I'm talking about.

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