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Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

nytimes.com

21–30 of 49 posts

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#21
post #16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, so please take this as an explanation and elucidation rather than a criticism: The concept of merely "demanding change" is unlikely to result in change, unless the term "demanding" includes actions that would result in significant disruption of economics and daily life (in which case that is an entirely different discussion). The core piece in dampening a desire for change, in my thinking anyway,…

I completely agree... It has almost become impossible to 'demand change' from within the system, unless off course the change is within the acceptable norms.

Indeed. That's exactly why the system has gotten so far out of kilter. Muting or disabling the normal feedback loops has set the stage for the escalation of abuse that we've been witnessing ever since the banksters that cratered the economy got bonuses in place of prison terms.

The economy and state security are both suffering from a hugely captured Congress. The flip side is that regaining control of our legislators would mean solving myriad problems at once. Or at least, starting to address them in ways that make sense to and for the people.

Breaking this hold isn't a one shot deal. Rather, it requires dismantling four interlocking institutions which have, in combination, the toxic effect we're becoming acutely aware of.

Specifically, we need to open closed primaries, end partisan redistricting, switch from private campaign finance to public, and brick up the revolving door between the public and private sectors by placing a lifetime hellban on future employment of public officials by any private interest they've overseen.

Obviously, these reforms will make a stint in public office far less lucrative than it is right now, so there is a zero percent chance that Congress will initiate them freely. That means support for these reforms must become the primary condition for winning elected office in the first place.

I have no idea how to get a critical mass of Americans to single-mindedly enforce this condition. But I can't think of any other way for them to recover an essential measure of control over Congress. So that's the problem in a nutshell.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#22
I love my country (USA) but I feel like like we are on such a stupid path. I get the "make the rich people a lot richer" thing, but we need to get our act together and do it quickly. I think that Snowden is screwed, but he has given us a chance, very small chance, to get our act together and bow out of this Empire thing.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#23
post #7

Can anyone think of another time this has ever happened? Two countries denying airspace to an official transport from a third country with no existing war or conflict involved? Bonus points if the head of state is onboard, but I'll accept other examples with only lesser officials involved. It's absolutely shocking.

Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#24
post #7

Can anyone think of another time this has ever happened? Two countries denying airspace to an official transport from a third country with no existing war or conflict involved? Bonus points if the head of state is onboard, but I'll accept other examples with only lesser officials involved. It's absolutely shocking.

No, and I can't imagine it will go over particularly well in Latin America. Terrifying for Snowden now though. If there was any doubt as to what lengths the US will go to make an example of him, it's now gone.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#25
The Portuguese authorities allowed ~150 CIA flights carrying "al-quaeda sympathizers" to Guantanamo (and other places) [1].

Now they deny right-of-passage to a flight carrying the president of Bolivia. Because? Well, you know, doing otherwise would upset the American authorities. It's realpolitik.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition#Portug...

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna.

You decide which seems more plausible.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#27
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

That could be it. Or the United States could be applying the typical measures of pressure in the diplomatic toolbox, consisting largely of economic incentives, concessions that meet other countries' policy goals, and appeals to mutual interest. You know, the standard tools of statecraft that have barely changed since the Congress of Vienna. You decide which seems more plausible.

Well my friend, I suggest we wait a year or two, and it might be clear which of us is right.

I am old enough to have lived through the Pentagon Papers disclosures, when a lot of people were calling for the execution of Daniel Ellesberg. Now, only right wing whackos don't acknowledge that Ellesberg served interests of US citizens.

EDIT: I am not being critical of you. I appreciate your comment, thanks.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal is a mess recently with several cabinet members resigning, including a key figure overseeing the implementation of terms agreed to in its bailout by the EU. I can see Portugal being in a particularly compliant mood at the moment in order to build good will with those that may have to help bail it out again. But France? What could possibly be the motive other than bending to pressure from the US?

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

No need to jump to conspiracies. Is it really that crazy that France might just want to help an ally track down a desperately wanted fugitive? Surely they'd ask for our help if they thought a rogue intelligence agent was flying across the US.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#29

I love my country (USA) but I feel like like we are on such a stupid path. I get the "make the rich people a lot richer" thing, but we need to get our act together and do it quickly. I think that Snowden is screwed, but he has given us a chance, very small chance, to get our act together and bow out of this Empire thing.

A good idea. It's time for someone else to have a turn. How about Putin? He has 10 years left in his term and knows a thing or two about espionage. Maybe the communist party of China - perhaps they could persuade us to adopt tougher internal policing.

Re: Bolivian Leader's Plane Rerouted on Snowden Fear

#30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NSA/US government probably has lots of dirt on politicians in these countries, and are applying it. Democracies are not so much democracies when the NSA can blackmail local politicians. I personally believe that this is the whole point of our large scale sweep of "everyone" surveillance, no matter how innocent they are.

No need to jump to conspiracies. Is it really that crazy that France might just want to help an ally track down a desperately wanted fugitive? Surely they'd ask for our help if they thought a rogue intelligence agent was flying across the US.

Except, Snowden obviously didn't do this for personal gain. His life is probably over.

Compare this situation to a British citizen a few years ago who sold sensitive state secrets for money, and got the MAXIMUM PENALTY by UK law: 2 years in prison. Snowden who rightly or wrongly is acting from I believe are his own moral goals, may get the death penalty, tortured like Manning, or life in prison.

"desperately wanted fugitive"? I am curious about you, and why you use a phrase like this. Seriously, please explain your position on this.

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