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Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

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Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#21

Post by tymekpavel »

mikeyouse wrote: post #14
throwaway10001 wrote: post #5

Also, "Ex-CIA official: Snowden probably questioned by Russians “The likelihood that there’s either been no conversation with him or they haven’t downloaded stuff from his electronic gear is about zero,” Philip Mudd, a former CIA deputy director of counterterrorism, told Matt Lauer." http://www.today.com/news/ex-cia-official-snowden-probably-q... In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him, Snowden h…

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia?

I think you're missing the point. The fact is he didn't release weapons designs; he released information pointing to surveillance programs that violate the 4th amendment.

> The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those who release confidential documents be arrested?"

The two questions you ask are not mutually exclusive, because whistleblowers need protection when surfacing evidence of illegal behavior. You seem to be taking arguments to their absolute extremes rather than considering the fact that there are instances where there is a reasonable expectation that individuals should be protected. That doesn't mean there should be no state secrets, it means there should be protections for individuals who reveal state secrets that demonstrate the government is not acting in accordance with the law. Furthermore, I would argue that state secrets that hide evidence of wrongdoing from the public should most certainly be leaked.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#22

Post by vinceguidry »

mikeyouse wrote: post #14
throwaway10001 wrote: post #5

Also, "Ex-CIA official: Snowden probably questioned by Russians “The likelihood that there’s either been no conversation with him or they haven’t downloaded stuff from his electronic gear is about zero,” Philip Mudd, a former CIA deputy director of counterterrorism, told Matt Lauer." http://www.today.com/news/ex-cia-official-snowden-probably-q... In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him, Snowden h…

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution.

This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#23

Post by eatitraw »

throwaway10001 wrote: post #19
eatitraw wrote: post #2

I've checked russian version of Putin's words, he really said that Snowden is still in Moscow. Also, there is a wikileaks twit: "Cancelling Snowden's passport and bullying intermediary countries may keep Snowden permanently in Russia. Not the brightest bunch at State.". https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/349556329645473792 So he remains in Russia, and he probably has problem getting to Ecuador.

So he remains in Russia, and he probably has problem getting to Ecuador. Maybe no direct flights and other transit countries might arrest him?

You're right, there are no direct flights.

The originally announced path was: HK -> Russia -> Havana -> Venezuela (probably: -> Ecuador).

I am wondering if the US pressed hard on Cuba and if Snowden can reach Ecuador on a private plane.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#24

Post by mpyne »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
codex wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of an extradition treaty does not prevent Russia from handing Snowden over, or expelling him; it would merely obligate them to.

> Lack of an extradition treaty does not prevent Russia from handing Snowden over, or expelling him; it would merely obligate them to. If Russia has a constitutional government with limited powers (which, I think, on paper it does, whatever it may otherwise do in practice), not having a legal basis to detain and hand him over may, legally at least, prevent them from detaining him and handing him over.

Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy. Really seems like one of things where "if there's a will, there's a way".

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#25

Post by dragonwriter »

mikeyouse wrote: post #14
throwaway10001 wrote: post #5

Also, "Ex-CIA official: Snowden probably questioned by Russians “The likelihood that there’s either been no conversation with him or they haven’t downloaded stuff from his electronic gear is about zero,” Philip Mudd, a former CIA deputy director of counterterrorism, told Matt Lauer." http://www.today.com/news/ex-cia-official-snowden-probably-q... In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him, Snowden h…

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested.

If the government believes that he still has valuable intelligence potentially damaging to national security that may not have already been released, and if the government's primary concern with his actions is addressing the national security impact (which all public statements point to), the primary goal of the government should be preventing foreign powers, potentially hostile ones, from getting access to the secrets he possesses.

Publicly threatening to arrest and try him for serious and potentially capital offenses like espionage while he is in territory not subject to the US or any close ally that would be likely inclined to cooperate given the circumstances is, from that perspective, quite foolish.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#26

Post by dragonwriter »

mpyne wrote: post #24
dragonwriter wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lack of an extradition treaty does not prevent Russia from handing Snowden over, or expelling him; it would merely obligate them to. If Russia has a constitutional government with limited powers (which, I think, on paper it does, whatever it may otherwise do in practice), not having a legal basis to detain and hand him over may, legally at least, prevent them from detaining him and handing him over.

Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy. Really seems like one of things where "if there's a will, there's a way".

> Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy.

It wouldn't surprise me if, on paper at least, being compelled by the government to pass out of the area not requiring a visa was not an immigration offense.

It also isn't surprising to me that the government of a sovereign state isn't particularly interested in going out of their way to game their own legal systems to make the government of a geopolitical rival who is publicly threatening them look less impotent and ineffectual.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#27

Post by mpyne »

dragonwriter wrote: post #26
mpyne wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy. Really seems like one of things where "if there's a will, there's a way".

> Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy. It wouldn't surprise me if, on paper at least, being compelled by the government to pass out of the area not requiring a visa was not an immigration offense. It also isn't surprising to me that…

I'm just saying, nothing would really surprise me in international diplomacy anymore.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#28

Post by icebraining »

vinceguidry wrote: post #22
mikeyouse wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution. This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime.

Isn't that what a trial - after arrest and prosecution - is supposed to determine?

The problem is not prosecution, it's that a fair trial is hardly guaranteed.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#29

Post by dragonwriter »

vinceguidry wrote: post #22
mikeyouse wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution. This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

> Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both.

He actually can have done both. That something has value to the public does not mean it is not within the scope of prohibition of a criminal statute. (Further, even if there was a blanket "public service" exception to the applicable criminal laws, its quite possible that some of the information he absconded with and released could be "service" and the rest could still be "crime".)

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#30

Post by hnriot »

vinceguidry wrote: post #22
mikeyouse wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, considering how US has promised to treat him You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? I'm honestly confused why people don't think he should be arrested. If he had released weapons designs instead of NSA documents, would you support his galavanting across HK and Russia? The question, "Is the NSA program unconstitutional?" is a far different one than "Should those wh…

> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution. This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

or both, it's not a binary thing.
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