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Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

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Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#21

Post by amirmc »

zwieback wrote: post #12
alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

> "For me it would be when people disappear..."

You don't necessarily need to 'disappear' people when (with enough information) you can string together a bunch of charges such that a compliant judicial system will put them away for you. Even if there isn't a conviction, the process may be sufficient to destroy someone's life.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#22

Post by PavlovsCat »

_ak wrote: post #17
zwieback wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

As they say in Germany, "Wer sich nicht bewegt, spürt seine Fesseln nicht." (who doesn't move doesn't feel his manacles)

My dear,

Have you noticed how those who move, move fast? And those who don’t, just stand still; motionless?

Yes, you can go ahead and rant to me about how an object in motion stays in motion, and how an object at rest stays at rest. But, I think there’s more to this than physics.

I think those in motion have seen something the others have not; their imprisonment.

While those who do not move, do not notice their chains.

Truly yours, Rosa Luxemburg

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#23

Post by Martijn »

triplesec wrote: post #10
adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

Watch this classic lawyer's talk, and understand that "nothing to hide" is still no protection against talking ti authorities, even non-malicious ones. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I wonder if this is also true if you are a foreigner visiting the US.

And I wonder if this also works for the Dutch police.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#24

Post by adaml_623 »

adventured wrote: post #20
adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

That refrain, which is based in fear, requires but one simple response: nothing to hide, according to whom? That invalidates their entire premise instantly, by pointing out that it is not their judgment that matters as to whether they have anything to hide. People say that they have nothing to hide - in response to things like the NSA spying scandals - because they're terrified of confrontation. To say almost anythin…

You're correct that they are acting like a turtle. I was trying to re-frame the question of spying so that it didn't involve them personally.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#25

Post by mseebach »

paganel wrote: post #3

For once I'll avoid Godwin's law and link instead to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_58 > The article was used for the imprisonment and execution of many prominent people, as well as multitudes of nonnotable innocents. (...) Article 58 of the Russian SFSR Penal Code was put in force on 25 February 1927 to arrest those suspected of counter-revolutionary activities. So the point is that even in Soviet Russia…

There is 'the law' and 'the rule of law'. The former without the latter is pointless, and is what existed in the Soviet Union. The worrying bit about the current state of the US is not the law itself, as much as it's the erosion of the rule of law: concepts such as due process, meeting your accusers in a disinterested court, equality before the law etc. being eroded.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#26

Post by chandler »

adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

Let's disregard the blackmail aspect of nothing-to-hide.

Consider that lobbyists & bureaucrats now have the capability (prevented only by policy) to snoop the past and present communications of elected officials.

Imagine your squeaky clean politician, whose friends are equally squeaky clean. How effective will this politician be when at negotiations, hearings, etc, his opponents have already studied his history and relationships? They know where he likes to eat, where he's been on vacation, where his dog goes to the vet. They know how the talks are going, they know which strategies are working, and which lines of thought aren't.

In short, they know which ideas to push, and which ideas to back away from.

This politician will be both ineffective at representing his constituents, as well as unable to point to why this is the case. And he's never going to cry out "blackmail!"

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#27

Post by GFischer »

zwieback wrote: post #12
alan_cx wrote: post #5

What I wonder is at what point words like stasi become reasonable or acceptable. OK, I don't like what is happening, and almost day by day thing happen that I feel are pushing the west, led by the US, more and more towards something highly controlled and not in any way free. Liberty is slowly being eroded, and I genuinely feel that is a true statement objectively. Right now, words like stasi, fascist, etc are an exag…

For me it would be when people disappear. Being spied on is one thing but being afraid of getting arrested is another. I grew up in Western Germany and visited the East several times. Living in the US now I have to say that it feels an order of magnitude "freer" than either of the Germanies of my youth. However, I'm very concerned about the NSA thing.

The U.S. is not there yet, but it's getting close.

American citizens can be arrested on U.S. soil and sent to Guantanamo, they haven't "disappeared" but they are out of sight.

There has been at least two American citizens sent to Guantanamo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Hamdi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(alleged_terr... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanam...

It feels like something out of the Niemoller poem:

"First they came for the muslims, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim."

OT: I always feel awkward about writing "American" when referring to U.S. citizens, as we in South America also call ourselves Americans ("Americanos").

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#28

Post by mtgx »

As for the "potential" chilling effect of all the spying, you don't need to theorize about whether it will happen or not. It's already happening:

http://www.france24.com/en/20130619-us-seizure-journalist-re...

The 4th amendment is all but obliterated, and now this is how the 1st amendment and the freedom of the press will be destroyed, too, by killing any sort of investigative journalism left, and by prosecuting all leakers.

I used to think that Wikileaks and other such secure leaking is the future of investigative journalism. If you believe the print media will die, and blogging will take its place, then investigative journalism will die, too, because I doubt many bloggers will go out and do that. So in a way Wikileaks would serve as a "disruptive innovation" for investigative journalism. Actually, most investigative journalism is only about finding "sources" that are willing to leak stuff to them, anyway. Wikileaks is kind of a "user-generated" investigative journalism/leaking, or investigative journalism 2.0.

But if the government is trying to kill both at once, then I'm not sure what's left to uncover illegalities inside the government.

Re: Edward Snowden: Saving Us from the United Stasi of America

#30

Post by Thrymr »

adaml_623 wrote: post #6

I've got an answer for all the people who say, "I've got nothing to hide". That might be true but you would have to be naive to think that the information that could be gathered from these NSA activities would not be misused by people. Imagine an up and coming politician. Squeaky clean but was friends with a few people who got prosecuted for drug dealing. Those useful NSA phone records could easily lead to the press…

"Show me the man and I'll find you the crime"

Who hasn't broken some minor law at some time? Selective enforcement and total information awareness on the part of the enforcers are a dangerous combination.

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