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NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

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Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#21
post #5

"We were gathering bulk data from telecoms even before the Patriot Act" Thought this was important to note.

This is documented in several books including "The shadow factory", it's been going on for decades. The Telco's basically get absolved of any legal responsibility directly from the oval office. How exactly that works in terms of law, I have no idea, but I would assume it's locked inside a safe.

ps. Do not use satellite phones unless you want everything listened too:)

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#22
post #4
post #3

Interesting that he now calls Snowden a traitor for the China-specific intel turned over, while supporting him broadly otherwise. Pretty much the same line I'd draw (although I think he should have gone to IG/Congress rather than the media, but with the threat of going to media if no action taken. It's possible he went to IG/Congress already, but I don't think so.)

Giving up British intelligence for the G20 surveillance is also probably crossing the line. If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us? I guess they should all assume they are being spied on at all times while on foreign soil, but airing that in public is likely to worsen his chance of avoiding jail time—or worse.

If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us?

It leaves us precisely where we are - developed countries have been spying on each others' diplomats and using their diplomats for spying for, well, just about ever.

US Secretary of State Henry Simpson famously said "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail" some 80 odd years ago. A quaint attitude, even back then.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#23
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving up British intelligence for the G20 surveillance is also probably crossing the line. If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us? I guess they should all assume they are being spied on at all times while on foreign soil, but airing that in public is likely to worsen his chance of avoiding jail time—or worse.

I have ~no problem with gov on gov spying. I actually have more problem with China's spying on US companies for commercial reasons than China's spying on the USG. USG spying on private individuals might be worse than China spying on USG from an abstract moral perspective. I'd argue that US v USSR spying during the Cold War, particularly PHOTOINT and SIGINT and other forms of technical intelligence, largely averted a…

HN loves wikipedia pages lately. If anyone is interested in a fascinating example of this blurry line between spying and transparency that rdl brings up check out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Open_Skies

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#24
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving up British intelligence for the G20 surveillance is also probably crossing the line. If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us? I guess they should all assume they are being spied on at all times while on foreign soil, but airing that in public is likely to worsen his chance of avoiding jail time—or worse.

I have ~no problem with gov on gov spying. I actually have more problem with China's spying on US companies for commercial reasons than China's spying on the USG. USG spying on private individuals might be worse than China spying on USG from an abstract moral perspective. I'd argue that US v USSR spying during the Cold War, particularly PHOTOINT and SIGINT and other forms of technical intelligence, largely averted a…

This has long been recognised, and sometimes even codified. For example there is the Treaty on Open Skies, under which member states allow each other unarmed surveillance flights over their territories.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#25
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is funny, because I thought mandatory access controls was the key feature that the NSA added in SELinux.

Yeah, everything I've been seeing seems to be that they seriously threw out everything about being competent in the 1990s, and then blew up into something huge (and incompetent) in the post-9/11. Hayden does not seem to have been a good director at all, at either NSA or CIA, and was responsible for the big push toward contractors as well.

Right? What happened to "No read up and no write down" and all the other gnarly things from the orange book and its colorful friends.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#26
post #22
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving up British intelligence for the G20 surveillance is also probably crossing the line. If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us? I guess they should all assume they are being spied on at all times while on foreign soil, but airing that in public is likely to worsen his chance of avoiding jail time—or worse.

If developed countries can't trust each other not to spy on their diplomats where does that leave us? It leaves us precisely where we are - developed countries have been spying on each others' diplomats and using their diplomats for spying for, well, just about ever. US Secretary of State Henry Simpson famously said "Gentlemen don't read each other's mail" some 80 odd years ago. A quaint attitude, even back then.

There's a difference in knowing how the sausage is made. I'm certainly not naive enough to think that governments aren't always spying on each other's diplomats, however the appearance that the UK and US went to pretty crazy lengths to keylog and tricks G20 diplomats into giving up intel out in the public could have some pretty negative implications for diplomatic discourse down the road.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#27
Somehow this quote from the interview by Thomas Drake, a former senior executive of the NSA and a decorated Air Force and Navy veteran[1], carries a bit more weight for me than the widely trumpeted blatherings of Dick Cheney[2], winner of five draft deferments[3]:

I actually salute him. I will say it right here. I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remember, I saw what he saw. I want to re-emphasize that. What he did was a magnificent act of civil disobedience. He's exposing the inner workings of the surveillance state. And it's in the public interest. It truly is.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Andrews_Drake

[2] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/0616/Dick-Chene...

[3] http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/01/politics/campaign/01CHEN.h...

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#28
I feel bad for Drake, he was facing federal charges and nobody seemed to notice. 89% of federal cases are plead before trial and of those that go to trial 90%+ are found guilty, that is how much the odds were stacked against him. He got nowhere near the attention that he deserves[1[]

William Binney is an absolute hero. I have absorbed everything this guy has ever said or done[2]. He was not only employed at the NSA, but he was a director who designed the software that is being used right now to dragnet all the communications. It is difficult for anybody - congressman, president, republican voter, etc. - to argue that what the NSA is doing is fine when the guy with all the technical details and design of the program says it isn't. That he is against what is happening is a big deal and needs more attention.

This video is on the front page of USA Today, so these guys and the topic is starting to get the recognition they deserve.

[1] The New Yorker did a great feature on him called 'The Secret Sharer' - good for background http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_...

[2] Search YouTube for Binney - he was the keynote speaker at the 2600 HOPE conference last year - a presentation that everybody must watch. Apparently Snowden decided to go the route he did after watching Binney in Laura Poitras' "The Program" for the NYTimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-secur... Potras is the same person who was the first journalist Snowden contacted.

Re: NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower [video]

#29
post #27

Somehow this quote from the interview by Thomas Drake, a former senior executive of the NSA and a decorated Air Force and Navy veteran[1], carries a bit more weight for me than the widely trumpeted blatherings of Dick Cheney[2], winner of five draft deferments[3]: I actually salute him. I will say it right here. I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remem…

I agree with the overwhelming majority of your post but I have to say the draft dodging/deferring comment was a little odd. I think its really tough for us (people who have grown up under an all volunteer service) to pass judgement on how a previous generation dealt with the draft, even more so if we pass those judgements as civilians.
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