Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden • Hacker News Board

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#21

Post by adaml_623 » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:32 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

"Snowden's Junket"? Interesting choice of words there. Does that classify as a slight or a smear?

"he would help his cause by voluntarily coming home to face the consequences" - I think that quote suggests who's smarter out of Schieffer and Snowden.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#22

Post by unreal37 » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:32 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

I think Snowden did the best he could do under the circumstances. Expose the truth, run to a safe place, and then identify himself publicly. He's not running, he just prefers freedom to a jail cell. Who doesn't? MLK and Rosa Parks weren't facing 100 years in jail or the death penalty, were they?

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#23

Post by david_shaw » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:32 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

> "The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences."

That's correct, and I agree that participating in civil disobedience, by nature, requires being willing to "do the time" as part of making a point.

Whistleblowers, however, are a different story. I don't believe that Snowden was trying to be a martyr for Americans' right to privacy; I think he saw something that he wanted to be revealed (or that he thought needed to be, if you're arguing his side of the story) and leaked it.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#24

Post by pyre » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #7

I'm curious... is there anything currently preventing him from flying to a further country as well? I'm not aware of there being a warrant out for his arrest or anything yet... What would happen today if he just hopped on the next flight to Iceland or Ecuador or wherever else (or let's just assume nonstop flights)?

- If the country he moves to doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US, that doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. If the country is small enough politically, then they will either be pressured into giving him up, or the US will just send in a strike team to kill/capture him. Heck, the US had no qualms about sending a strike team into Pakistan to assassinate Osama bin Laden, do you think that some country a lot less political pull is going to matter to them?

- The idea that he can stay hidden for long seems doubtful. He is now a high enough value target that he would have to have money and connections like Osama bin Laden or go off to live in a cave in the middle of nowhere with little (or preferably no) human contact to escape detection.

- There probably are plenty of people that escape international man-hunts, but they aren't people that have pissed off the entire US government, in addition to embarrassing powerful people on the international stage.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#25

Post by gruseom » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #15

onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

Since you have such faith in Daniel Ellsberg's moral stature, you might want to refer to his comments on this particular case.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#26

Post by lignuist » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:33 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

Only martyrs should try to improve things?

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#27

Post by Ygg2 » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:34 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #15

onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

Yeah, no. That doesn't work like that. The times now and 40 years ago were different.

CIA, NSA and the whole gamut are now much more efficient than they were 40 years ago (no need for due process etc.) If you try to play fair, they'll fuck you over big time.

Look how much good the legal system was to Aaron Schwartz for a minor misdemeanor. You'd never hear from Edward Snowden, until he just came out and admitted he was Chinese spy and that he loves Big Brother, I mean Big Government.

PS. He isn't in China btw, he is in Hong Kong. Which isn't a communist country as comment before me noted.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#28

Post by Apocryphon » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:36 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #15

onli wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Did Daniel Ellsberg bolt for a communist nation, sympathetic to his views after releasing the Pentagon papers? No, he turned himself in. Snowden wants all the glory and none of the bruises. If that doesn't demonstrate a lack of selflessness, what does? Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg#Trial_and_mistr...

Maybe if that communist country was neutral and non-aligned with either the West or the Warsaw Pact, like Yugoslavia. Then the metaphor would work.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#29

Post by jlgreco » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:36 PM UTC

onli wrote: post #10

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

Useful to know how the enemy is arguing. Sure, the consequences are torture, imprisonment and death. But who wouldn't take those consequences to be a real hero?

Indeed, the demand from some that dissidents should all throw themselves upon a pyre is peculiar to say the least. I feel safe in asserting that anyone who demands it is either foolish or has ulterior motives for demanding it.

I hope we are not forgetting that civil disobedience is not the only legitimate form of resistance. Particularly, when the prerequisites for successful civil disobedience are not precisely met, attempting it is not being noble but rather just being foolish. There is nothing admirable about taking yourself out of the fight for no reason other than to satisfy those who demand strict adherence to the principles of civil disobedience.

Re: Choosing Hong Kong Is a Brilliant Move by Edward Snowden

#30

Post by jivatmanx » Sun, Jun 16, 2013, 10:37 PM UTC

spitx wrote: post #6

CBS' Bob Schieffer on Snowden's junket: "For one thing, I don't remember Martin Luther King, Jr., or Rosa Parks running off and hiding in China. The people who ran the civil-rights movement were willing to break the law and suffer the consequences." "That's a little different than putting the nation's security at risk and running away." "What I see in Edward Snowden is just a narcissistic young man who has decided he…

MLK was protected by his fame. Rosa Park's act was entirely symbolic. Ellsberg was protected by the fact that he had given the information to a number of extremely influential Senators; something I'm sure Snowden would have loved to have done, if he was lucky enough to have that kind of access, and if there were still such thing as a senator who is honest and cares about the constitution.

(Or if "journalists" still believed their job was to serve as a check on, rather than an apologist for, the powerful)