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Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

nytimes.com

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Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#21

Post by paulbaumgart »

adamc wrote: post #17
paulbaumgart wrote: post #4

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

Practically, it means there is a lot wrong with programming as a career choice -- for a large number of students, it will have been a poor investment. I don't see much reason to sympathize with the employers, either.

It appears to me that it's more a problem of unrealistic expectations. If somebody else is willing to do a better job for less money, a person's got to either improve/update their skills or start asking for a smaller salary.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I sympathize with the employers, but I can certainly understand the rationale.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#22

Post by paulbaumgart »

Elcho wrote: post #20

Can we cool it with the New York Times articles? I've noticed more and more of these puff pieces and its lowering the tone.

I agree they can be light on content and oversimplify things to appeal to a broader audience, but they're usually still a pretty good starting point for decent discussions.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#23

Post by octane »

Elcho wrote: post #20

Can we cool it with the New York Times articles? I've noticed more and more of these puff pieces and its lowering the tone.

Being a hacker has always meant being a social engineer. NY Times is an excellent window onto mainstream media and how society thinks.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#24

Post by danbmil99 »

I suspect the main reason MS or Google or anyone else prefers young programmers is that they tend to be more committed and 'fresh', in the sense that they are not yet bitter, cynical, and hopelessly opinionated. They also tend not to have as heavy a set of personal/family obligations, so can work cheaper, longer hours etc.

And of course on average, if you're too lazy to actually find out from the interviewee, they probably tend to have more up-to-date skills.

OTOH, a seasoned veteran often has a knowledgebase in a specific problem domain that can be immensely valuable. However, it takes a lot of work to find the right person and ensure that his KB is the real thing, is up to date, and that the personality attached to the KB is going to mesh with the culture of the rest of the team.

When things are going gangbusters, it's easier to just ignore these subtleties and hire the lusty, naive young waifs who will work their skinny little asses to the bone for da man before they realize their souls are being sucked dry by evil sorcerers.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#25

Post by Elcho »

paulbaumgart wrote: post #22
Elcho wrote: post #20

Can we cool it with the New York Times articles? I've noticed more and more of these puff pieces and its lowering the tone.

I agree they can be light on content and oversimplify things to appeal to a broader audience, but they're usually still a pretty good starting point for decent discussions.

That's a fair point, but a balance needs to be struck, at times it seems like every other article is from a large circulation newspaper or magazine and if that trend continues it could spoil HN.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#26

Post by brc »

Personally, when I started as a fresh young grad happy to put in 2x hours for 0.5x pay I would look at some of the older guys and say 'I never want to end up like that'. I still feel that way. 'like that' refers to a bitter, cynical attitude born of two decades in the cube farm, navigating endless rounds of layoffs, restructuring, business-management fads and other nasties.

The key is to keep your skills up to date and avoid the sticky-trap that is management roles. If you drift into hands-off management, the meetings-and-flowcharts current will swiftly take you away from the technical shoreline and you won't be able to get back. It takes a conscious effort to stay a technical person in most companies, and you'd better be prepared to be looked down upon from other people who go into management roles.

Of the people I started working with as fellow grads, I'd say that less than 10% are still actively writing software of any kind. I nearly gave it up several times, but I'm glad I've stuck with it, because you can be so much more creative in code than with management.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#27

Post by Elcho »

octane wrote: post #23
Elcho wrote: post #20

Can we cool it with the New York Times articles? I've noticed more and more of these puff pieces and its lowering the tone.

Being a hacker has always meant being a social engineer. NY Times is an excellent window onto mainstream media and how society thinks.

But we can all see this window on the mainstream; where HN is special is finding those whom have synthezised a clearer or more thought provoking picture of the mainstream either through direct experience or a unique perspective.

I think the distinction is between hacks and hackers. They may provoke discussion and grab attention but its just the previous media's generation's form of flaming on an industrialized scale, these articles are without the kind of integrity you get from the truly engaged and first hand experience that HN is so good at fishing out.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#28

Post by octane »

Elcho wrote: post #27
octane wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a hacker has always meant being a social engineer. NY Times is an excellent window onto mainstream media and how society thinks.

But we can all see this window on the mainstream; where HN is special is finding those whom have synthezised a clearer or more thought provoking picture of the mainstream either through direct experience or a unique perspective. I think the distinction is between hacks and hackers. They may provoke discussion and grab attention but its just the previous media's generation's form of flaming on an industrialized scale,…

Oh christ, get over yourself.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#29

Post by patio11 »

tjic wrote: post #2

> 57 percent of computer science graduates are working as programmers; at 15 years the figure drops to 34 percent, and at 20 years -- when most are still only in their early 40's -- it is down to 19 percent. That data is compatible with lots of things besides age discrimination: * a job description that mostly appeals to the young * a young and rapidly growing field where most of the 1988 CS grads are promoted to man…

And a nation in which the average individual changes careers 3 time, for that matter.

Re: Now Hiring If You're Young (1998)

#30

Post by [deleted] »

paulbaumgart wrote: post #4

"Employers justify shunting aside midcareer programmers on the ground that they lack skills in the latest software languages." I don't see what's wrong with that. Clearly, to command a higher salary, an employee has to offer more than someone who gets paid less. And if in fact that employee has less to offer than a more junior person, because their skills are obsolete, it's even more of a reason to let them go. I gue…

[deleted]
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