Is it possible that the 2-part series by This American Life ("When Patents Attack") had a tangible effect here?
Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
21–30 of 47 posts
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a bit of a libertarian myself, I think I have two points to add. First, IP doesn't (I think) and shouldn't ever stop you from doing whatever you want for yourself. I can infringe all the patents I want if I'm using my matter and energy to make stuff myself. When it becomes commerce, that's when the government steps in. Which brings me to my second and harder-to-explain point. I'm still thinking through this myself…
Why 20 years? That's entirely arbitrary. Regarding your point about commerce, and the 'lameness' of an arbitrary class of competition, libertarians should encourage economic competition. Why does it suddenly become "lame" when a competitor "steals" someone's idea? Implementation is just as important as imagination. If another guy can beat you to the market even after you have the innovator's head start, you deserve t…
Yeah - I don't disagree on any particular point with you. My main point is that a certain degree of entitlement to use your original idea exclusively should inherently exist, and that the government would be protecting that right, not granting it. But 20 years? Yeah I absolutely agree - arbitrary, and way longer than it should be.
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
I described myself as "a bit of a Libertarian" because I generally agree with all major points on their platform - not because I change my opinion to match their platform. I also didn't say the government "should" step in - I said the government "does" step in - because currently they do not prevent you from using ideas in patents for personal use.
> currently they do not prevent you from using ideas in patents for personal use Is that true though? I was under the impression that if someone patented a method of, say, making a sandwich, I could be sued for performing that invention in my own house for my own personal lunch.
I might be wrong, but I was under the opposite impression. I've done a bit of googling around and I've found some fairly reliable-looking sources arguing both ways. Anybody a lawyer? :)
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why 20 years? That's entirely arbitrary. Regarding your point about commerce, and the 'lameness' of an arbitrary class of competition, libertarians should encourage economic competition. Why does it suddenly become "lame" when a competitor "steals" someone's idea? Implementation is just as important as imagination. If another guy can beat you to the market even after you have the innovator's head start, you deserve t…
I think it's because in the modern (say, post 1900) world, many inventions that increase utility (both for individuals and for everyone as a whole) cost a ton of money to research. If your competition can instantly use that research, you may not recoup your costs, and thus have no incentive to do it in the first place. Drug patents are a clear example of this (although you might argue that altruism can also be a moti…
In general, I think patents slow innovation. My intuition is trade secrets would work well enough for most industries. It usually takes a significant amount of time to reverse engineer a product, and in doing so one might gain new insights into how said product can be improved. Drugs are an exception, I admit, but I don't think most of the innovation in medicine this century will be in easily-synthesized drugs as we understand them.
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#25as usual, a lot of talking, proposing good stuff but 1% gets done.
When he does stuff, it's not enough (Obamacare) and it's too much (Obamacare); when he gets blocked, it's his fault it wasn't closed (Guantanamo) and he's threatening our freedom by trying to close it (Guantanamo); when he withdraws from wars he's cutting and running from our enemies (Iraq and Afghanistan) and he's a warmonger who isn't withdrawing fast enough (Iraq and Afghanistan).
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Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's because in the modern (say, post 1900) world, many inventions that increase utility (both for individuals and for everyone as a whole) cost a ton of money to research. If your competition can instantly use that research, you may not recoup your costs, and thus have no incentive to do it in the first place. Drug patents are a clear example of this (although you might argue that altruism can also be a moti…
In general, I think patents slow innovation. My intuition is trade secrets would work well enough for most industries. It usually takes a significant amount of time to reverse engineer a product, and in doing so one might gain new insights into how said product can be improved. Drugs are an exception, I admit, but I don't think most of the innovation in medicine this century will be in easily-synthesized drugs as we…
I think I agree with you, but I'm not so sure on the difficulties of reverse engineering.
Small electronics are a good example to both our points; once a new device hits a factory in china it's as good as pirated (sometimes it's pirated in the same factory after hours!), but that hasn't terribly hurt the companies cranking out cheap USB drives, and companies like Apple have just moved way the up value chain.
I do think they have significant use for things like engines and heavy equipment, where (everything but the metallurgy) is reversible, but they take $BN investments.
Software patents (and really all 'business method') patents are total trash, if only because the USPTO can't possibly keep up with the pace, so people get patents for linked lists (in the 90s!) and shopping carts and such.
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are there really people who feel like the government shouldn't enforce property rights? Aren't those just called anarchists?
See my sibling post for more on my own opinion on the matter, but that all hinges on whether or not you consider IP property rights. Is the exclusive right to use an idea an inherent, basic human right, like freedom-of-religion or freedom-of-speech? Or is it a government granted monopoly?
All property is a government granted monopoly in the present system, although much of it would be accepted through social convention or defensible by private force in the absence of government. Copyright/patents would probably be defensible for the sufficiently powerful too...
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#28Is it possible that the 2-part series by This American Life ("When Patents Attack") had a tangible effect here?
Not sure if it is what is prompting the Obama admin to issue the executive order, but it is worth a listen to anyone even remotely interested in the topic.
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#29I like this - it sounds like it's just adding transparency to get rid of the legal mind-games and intimidation. I had feared was that the plan was to effectively stop honoring patents under certain conditions. Although that would certainly be great in this specific situation, it presents a scary idea that rights or property* can be nullified after you've paid for it. More transparency and openness is good - not only…
IP is a case of the government forbidding you from using the matter and energy you own in certain ways. I never understand libertarians who love government-granted IP rights.
> I never understand libertarians who love government-granted IP rights.
Under some very influential libertarian theories of property (e.g., John Locke's), IP rights arise as natural rights the same way that rights in real estate or personal property arise, and so should be protected by government to the same extent as any other natural property right.
Re: Obama to propose plan targeting patent trolls
#30Also being discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5820657
Split discussion, both on the front page.