Live data from Hacker News

Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

dailyherald.com

21–30 of 98 posts

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#21
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

I went through public school here, and never suffered through anything worse than the general pettiness that is endemic to teachers and school administrators. There are problems with the American school system, but these outliers are not those problems. Heck, I remember in high school there was a huge protest over attempts to introduce minimum dress standards (e.g. no wife beater shirts, no spaghetti straps) in which the teachers participated in the protest.

And I don't see how this is an example of kids being "manipulated." At best this is an example of a school district not consulting its lawyer before giving a well-intentioned survey. The purpose was to try and identify kids who needed additional psychological support, not get kids to cop to their drug use so they could be prosecuted.

And you know what? It's not even clear the teacher was factually correct here. The school administrator argued that once the surveys were filled out, they would become student records (which are protected by a law called FERPA). I haven't done a close analysis of the issue, but if FERPA kept the documents from being obtained by the police, there was no 5th amendment privilege against incrimination because there was no real and tangible threat of disciplinary action. Moreover, there was no "custody" by the police which would invoke certain requirements for the purposes of the 5th amendment.

At best, the teacher was teaching his speculation about what is still unsettled law as actual fact about the 5th amendment.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#22
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Those are extreme examples of normal stuff, and that have been normal since schools (not educational institutions) were invented.

The idea for schools (with that name) came from Prussia (ie: Germany when they had a king), they noticed that their soldiers were not keen in defending their government, not patriotic, and fled from the battlefield upon hearing gunfire.

Someone then invented the "Prussian Model" of education, that was named "Volksschol" (pronounced volks school), that had as objective to make children believe more into the government and turn into adults more willing to go to war for it and even impose its beliefs on other countries.

The EUA (and several other countries) quickly copied the system, all of them (including Prussia original) making it mandatory, and to the people made the justification that it was for the good of the children (and who would refuse? school in greek means "leisure", and how would you dare refuse your children to have fun with other children, learn and get some social skills?), but internal government communication always made clear the intention was prepare kids to war, the report made to the US used some phrases (I do not remember the exact quote) like: "It might be harmful to children, but we can teach them to defend republic always."

And of course, none of this is lost to the UN (that state that is a human right to mandatory schools exist, and that those schools should teach about UN as institution to foster peace and about UN interests).

EDIT: fixed word that commenter pointed (I knew the greek meaning in portuguese and translated that to english... pardon me for the lost in translation meaning)

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#23
post #21
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

I went through public school here, and never suffered through anything worse than the general pettiness that is endemic to teachers and school administrators. There are problems with the American school system, but these outliers are not those problems. Heck, I remember in high school there was a huge protest over attempts to introduce minimum dress standards (e.g. no wife beater shirts, no spaghetti straps) in which…

1. FERPA information can be released in a "health" or "safety" emergency.

2. Records created by a designated official for the purpose of referring violations to police are not subject to FERPA.

3. Institutions have relatively broad power to designate people as school officials with legitimate educational interests, and thereby to designate who may receive FERPA-protected records. Some sources recommend to schools that they designate police or security personnel as "school officials with legitimate educational interests" for this reason [a].

a = http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/Channel/University-Secur...

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#24
Source article actually points out that the teacher didn't do anything wrong in the warning, but that the warning was unnecessary and that the survey instrument was designed to protect students and give them a less risky way to get help than by talking to the police.

If the survey designers had communicated with the "administrators" of the survey (the teachers and aides), this whole flap could have been avoided.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#25
post #22
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

Those are extreme examples of normal stuff, and that have been normal since schools (not educational institutions) were invented. The idea for schools (with that name) came from Prussia (ie: Germany when they had a king), they noticed that their soldiers were not keen in defending their government, not patriotic, and fled from the battlefield upon hearing gunfire. Someone then invented the "Prussian Model" of educati…

Citation needed.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#26
"And students cannot incriminate themselves because, even if the district shared the information with police, police can't prosecute based on that, he said. They are only allowed to arrest students if they are harming other students, such as in a fight, or if the student is in possession of drugs or alcohol, Barshinger said."

I'm not saying that the school had anything but the best intentions, but It does give them a bit of a head start in targeting certain pupils should the school wish find a reason to remove a few bad apples.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#27
Regarding privacy concerns:

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/hottopics/ht10-28-02...

In specific:

Sec. 1061 Student Privacy, Parental Access to Information, and Administration of Certain Physical Examinations to Minors.

The No Child Left Behind Act contains a major amendment to PPRA that gives parents more rights with regard to the surveying of minor students, the collection of information from students for marketing purposes, and certain non-emergency medical examinations. PPRA has been referred to as the "Hatch Amendment" and the "Grassley Amendment" after authors of amendments to the law. Now, school officials may hear the law referred to as the "Tiahrt Amendment" after Congressman Todd Tiahrt, who introduced the changes regarding surveys to the PPRA. The statute is found in 20 U.S.C. § 1232h and the regulations (not yet updated) are found in 34 CFR Part 98.

U.S. Department of Education Surveys

Subsection (a) of the legislation was not changed. Subsection (b) added an additional category (see bold below) and made minor changes to the existing seven categories. This provision applies to surveys funded in whole or part by any program administered by the U. S. Department of Education (ED). PPRA provides:

-that schools and contractors make instructional materials available for inspection by parents if those materials will be used in connection with an ED-funded survey, analysis, or evaluation in which their children participate; and

-that schools and contractors obtain prior written parental consent before minor students are required to participate in any ED-funded survey, analysis, or evaluation that reveals information concerning:

1.political affiliations or beliefs of the student or the student's parent;

2.mental and psychological problems of the student or the student's family;

3.sex behavior or attitudes;

4.illegal, anti-social, self-incriminating, or demeaning behavior;

5.critical appraisals of other individuals with whom respondents have close family relationships;

6.legally recognized privileged or analogous relationships, such as those of lawyers, physicians, and ministers;

7.religious practices, affiliations, or beliefs of the student or student's parent; or

8.income (other than that required by law to determine eligibility for participation in a program or for receiving financial assistance under such program).

Subsections a and b of PPRA generally apply when a survey is funded, at least in part, by any program administered by the Secretary of Education.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically random, depending on where you live. (Another thing that hasn't changed since Paul Graham was in high school.[0]) I think that the shitty things you see on places like HN are on an upward trend, but it's always been kind of bad. If you want to get an education into how long this sort of thing has been going on, try one of the reddit threads that pops up every so often with a title like "Did you ever ge…

That "77 years ago" guy says he's 25 years old in another post.

Yeah, I actually went and checked that out after posting. By then though noprocrast had kicked in and I couldn't fix it. I'd append the relevant post here, but somebody already did it to the OP.

So instead I'll complete that footnote:

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

In case there was any doubt, he also says he graduated high school in 2006.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicPsychology/comments/1d0kdf/d...

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#29

Regarding privacy concerns: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/hottopics/ht10-28-02... In specific: Sec. 1061 Student Privacy, Parental Access to Information, and Administration of Certain Physical Examinations to Minors. The No Child Left Behind Act contains a major amendment to PPRA that gives parents more rights with regard to the surveying of minor students, the collection of information from students for ma…

Can written parental consent be twisted to mean silent consent from not replying to an email? I remember a cookie law in EU that had some harsh consent requirement being turned to mean "silent consent by continue staying on the website". Maybe the act of letting the kid continue go to school was interpreted as consent.

Re: Batavia school board disciplines teacher after Fifth Amendment survey flap

#30
post #3

I worry that sitting here and reading the articles which turn up in HN each day that I am getting a very particular impression about life in America. Between this and Kiera Wilmot I feel genuinely horrified. Am I just seeing outliers here? Am I seeing frightening trend where children are needlessly criminalised (Kiera) or willfully (even if well intentioned) manipulated (my interpretation of this survey debacle)? Oth…

> Am I just seeing outliers here?

The news is by definition a daily compendium of outliers. If it happened all the time, it would not be news.

Post reply on HN