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In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

nytimes.com

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Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#21

Post by WesternStar »

rdl wrote: post #13
prollyignored wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (8 nation alliance, Opium Wars, World War II, etc). It's irrational and this is no excuse or justification of their disgusting behaviour, but I think this is what's happening in many cases. Even today, "Caucasians" don't visit countries to make friends (Africa). The behavior is justified, from a pragmatic perspective. Being a hippie peace freak is just silly. > "Chinese hackers rising" that's so popular these days…

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

I know you think Africa is still largely a charity case but everyone else knows that its the next big growth market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#22

Post by rdl »

WesternStar wrote: post #21
rdl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

I know you think Africa is still largely a charity case but everyone else knows that its the next big growth market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

No, I think Africa is mostly a business opportunity, sans a few places which have structural political problems which could be best addressed through high-velocity physics demonstrations. But it's undeniable that the US v. USSR caused a lot of problems during the cold war (Angola, etc), including propping up a lot of bad leaders or supporting revolutions.

I don't think it will be "plundered", though -- the foreigners (white and Asian) doing business going to Africa are making life better for everyone.

There are a lot of NGOs and UN organizations still operating in Africa which don't help (and never really helped). But there are small, usually religious, charities who are also doing good, just like they do in Asia, Europe, and the US.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#23

Post by EvilLook »

andridk wrote: post #14

Crackers exist and it is a shame that the western world punishes security research and shifts the blame towards the "hackers" instead of trying to get these vulnerabilities fixed, where they originated. In the coming (or ongoing) cyber-war - who wins? The countries that welcomed crackers or those who jail them? Note: I am not advocating breaking into people's computers. Just a community that welcomes security input.

The reason that the blame is shifted toward "hackers" is that being proactive with security, while the right thing to do, costs money and time. In a market where software from different vendors is usually only determined by price and update frequency spending additional money and time is a competitive disadvantage. However, if you can push your security failings off onto "hackers" not only do you minimize costs but your customers, if they're not sufficiently savvy to this game, think that you're the better vendor because you're able to "beat hackers at their own game".

Nowhere is this mindset more prevalent than in the anti-virus software field, which of course is another can of worms itself.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#24

Post by wisty »

vishaldpatel wrote: post #8
outside1234 wrote: post #2

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us. What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important. To do business with a reputed company, you have to have a good reputation. As the company that you're working with's reputation gets worse, so do your chances of getting work done / getting paid. Of course, well-reputed companies are probably in higher demand from both suppliers and customers, just like everywhere else, compared to say, cheaper firms.

> A friend told me that in China, reputation is very important.

There's two concepts here - "face" (literal translation) and "connections" (also a literal translation). Both are widely misunderstood.

AFAIK (and I'm not an expert):

Connections (guanxi) is fairly straightforward - it's all about who you know. However, there's a spectrum between casual acquaintances, people who do each other favors, extremely close friends, and family (in order of usefulness). It's often used as a bluff too (saying you know a guy, when it's all just a con).

"Face" (mian zi) is much more complicated. Since the term is used in English, it's easy to mistake what it really means. And it's also kind of vague - everything from "don't look undignified", to "don't let anyone disrespect you", to "have a good reputation".

Generally, Westerners think "face" means "be upfront, and willing to admit to an honest mistake". In China, this is rarely the case.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#25

Post by prollyignored »

WesternStar wrote: post #21
rdl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

I know you think Africa is still largely a charity case but everyone else knows that its the next big growth market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

> ... market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

Profit from weapons. Profit from (medical) patents. Will never sell industrial patents, whilst exploiting African Earth.

You know the story of how chickens are fed dead-chicken-matter ?

The white man know only to take. Never to give.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#26

Post by kyllo »

outside1234 wrote: post #2

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us. What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

The attitude in China is that if you don't cheat, you're the fool--because the other guy is certainly cheating you. So everyone lies, cheats, and steals (while of course maintaining a thin veneer of plausible deniability) to avoid being the bigger fool.

This probably is related to the fact that China is a shame-based culture rather than a guilt-based culture. What I mean by that is, people there only feel bad about immoral/unethical behavior if and when they get caught. Wrongdoing is externalized, it exists only in the eyes of others.

"How do you sleep at night?" Is a question Americans often ask when they know someone is getting away with morally wrong or criminal behavior. In China, you will not hear an equivalent question.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#27

Post by Retric »

WesternStar wrote: post #21
rdl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, a lot of white people visit Africa and do a lot of good, still -- both businesspeople and (usually religious) charities and development organizations. Largely enough good to make up for the big NGOs and UN, and some of the legacy of colonialism and the cold war.

I know you think Africa is still largely a charity case but everyone else knows that its the next big growth market that will be easily plundered due to weak political systems and fragmentation.

Week political systems make it much risker to do business in Africa. Stupid people look at Africa as a growth opertunity's but few westerners got rich in Russa after the cold war. Weak government actually makes political connections more important just look at China.

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#29

Post by wnight »

jckt wrote: post #6
outside1234 wrote: post #2

If it doesn't draw blood, its accepted business practice in China. If it does draw blood, it might be accepted business practice. Seriously, I've never seen a place where cheating was so accepted: just about every other taxi ride attempted to take me the "scenic route", almost every business deal ended up with them trying to screw or defraud us. What a nightmare of a place to do business in - never again.

I'm probably slightly biased here, having quite a few good friends that themselves are very involved with the manufacturing scene in China. From what I know and have seen, the apparently widespread cheating you mentioned is much rarer than you say. In many areas there is serious friction between (corrupt) government and business, and it is mostly under such situations where I've known about "non-standard business pra…

> I don't think it's really racism per se, as I think amongst many Chinese, especially the less well-educated, they believe that for reasons of history, foreigners, [...] owe them something

Technically, that is racism. Blaming similar looking people.

Less insidious than other forms maybe...

Re: In China, Hacking Has Widespread Acceptance

#30

Post by PakG1 »

lmm wrote: post #18
PakG1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this community really needs to get over this. Individuals, groups of individuals, or even entire communities do not get to determine the definitions of words or how words are used. Words usage is determined by society at large. If this is how hacking is used by society, then that's what it is. That's how the English language works. That's why the word xerox is an acceptable verb. That's why the meaning of the…

The word gay changed precisely because a small community refused to "let it go".

I'm not sure what you're saying? When I look up the history and etymology of the word gay, I don't see anything of the sort. It was quite a gradual change not the fault of any single small community.
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