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U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

computerworld.com

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Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#21

Post by nknighthb »

greenyoda wrote: post #9
bermanoid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which, to be fair, the article points out right at the top: "There are multiple theories for the decline in pay, but a common one cited by analysts is simply that the new people being hired are paid less than those already on the job."

But these are not necessarily "beginner" jobs: these unemployed people may have been hired back for the same types of jobs they had before, but at lower salaries. If you've been unemployed for a couple of years, you're probably willing to settle for less money just so you could have a job again.

Some such instances could conceivably be a simple market correction, too. Some localities particularly entangled by the housing bubble could have had inflated tech salaries as part of general market/cost-of-living forces.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#22

Post by nknighthb »

grdvnl wrote: post #10
hristov wrote: post #3

This does not necessarily mean that wages are falling. It could be that a lot of the new jobs created are "beginner" jobs with lower wages that pull the average down, but the existing jobs still pay what they used to or more.

I think even in the Silicon Valley the salaries other than the selective big guys has not even kept up with inflation. A 2 year-experience developer still gets between 80-100k or less. This is what was being paid in 2000 as well. The situation is probably the same elsewhere. Of course, my numbers above are from my own poor sampling.

I'm not sure what part of 2000 you're talking about, but the middle of 2000 was the beginning of the bust. I don't think that's a good place to take the sample.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#23

Post by camus »

ardit33 wrote: post #17

I think this has due to an expansion of entry level jobs. ie. Code/App Academy, people learning Ruby on Rails and going to entry level jobs. Since tools are getting better and better, there is an expansion on the lower level of engineering. They should have been measuring people with the same level of experience (e.g. 5 years or experience), and see how they stack up. My personal experience, and from what I have seen…

oh yeah , blame it on Rails , Like JEE garbage makes you look smart ...

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#25

Post by guard-of-terra »

zanny wrote: post #6
hristov wrote: post #3

This does not necessarily mean that wages are falling. It could be that a lot of the new jobs created are "beginner" jobs with lower wages that pull the average down, but the existing jobs still pay what they used to or more.

What is / will drive wages down is making the process of becoming an (experienced) programmer easier, by lowering the per case work needing done and lowering the barrier to entry (compare writing C++ in 2002 to 2012), and the resources available) and that most use cases are best suited by high level dynamic languages like Python or Ruby, which have significantly less work investment to get results compared to old fav…

What's up with C++ in 2002 and today? If you knew C with classes in 2002 (MFC style) you were good, if you knew GoF patterns you were elite.

Today you have to know STL, auto/smart/shared pointers, all kinds of right casts, you have to know boost (a huge code base) and on top of that you are expected to know C++0x (or how is it called?) with its lambdas, autos and stuff, while still understanding the whole "classic" C++.

(But at least nobody cares about MFC and ATL anyway)

And don't forget templates of templates of templates which crept into many code bases. And 64-bit (or ARM) is now reality which you should account for.

If anything, you have to know ten times more in C++ in 2012 compared to 2002.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#26

Post by bdcravens »

zanny wrote: post #6
hristov wrote: post #3

This does not necessarily mean that wages are falling. It could be that a lot of the new jobs created are "beginner" jobs with lower wages that pull the average down, but the existing jobs still pay what they used to or more.

What is / will drive wages down is making the process of becoming an (experienced) programmer easier, by lowering the per case work needing done and lowering the barrier to entry (compare writing C++ in 2002 to 2012), and the resources available) and that most use cases are best suited by high level dynamic languages like Python or Ruby, which have significantly less work investment to get results compared to old fav…

I'd also point out that the expansion of SaaS, open source, and mobile app marketplaces impacts this.

Look at services like FreshBooks and Basecamp. The engineering effort to implement comparable solutions used to be immense; now you can buy into online services for less than the price of lunch, with no long-term contracts.

Similarly, look at open source solutions like WordPress. An afternoon with a $5 hosting account and a few plugins will get a site that would have cost you $100K+ in 1998 feature-wise.

I'm also amazed at how often a few minutes searching for an app will get me something that fits the need perfectly - and costs less than $4.

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#28

Post by bdcravens »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #25
zanny wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is / will drive wages down is making the process of becoming an (experienced) programmer easier, by lowering the per case work needing done and lowering the barrier to entry (compare writing C++ in 2002 to 2012), and the resources available) and that most use cases are best suited by high level dynamic languages like Python or Ruby, which have significantly less work investment to get results compared to old fav…

What's up with C++ in 2002 and today? If you knew C with classes in 2002 (MFC style) you were good, if you knew GoF patterns you were elite. Today you have to know STL, auto/smart/shared pointers, all kinds of right casts, you have to know boost (a huge code base) and on top of that you are expected to know C++0x (or how is it called?) with its lambdas, autos and stuff, while still understanding the whole "classic" C…

Very true. What % of developers are writing C++ however? I'd think it's a reasonable assumption that they're going down (and a cursory glance at Indeed shows this).

So some jobs will always pay well; the average salary should go down if the average skill need goes down however. (Ignoring for the moment that some lesser skilled development jobs actually pay better as a result of demand)

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#29

Post by guard-of-terra »

bdcravens wrote: post #28
guard-of-terra wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's up with C++ in 2002 and today? If you knew C with classes in 2002 (MFC style) you were good, if you knew GoF patterns you were elite. Today you have to know STL, auto/smart/shared pointers, all kinds of right casts, you have to know boost (a huge code base) and on top of that you are expected to know C++0x (or how is it called?) with its lambdas, autos and stuff, while still understanding the whole "classic" C…

Very true. What % of developers are writing C++ however? I'd think it's a reasonable assumption that they're going down (and a cursory glance at Indeed shows this). So some jobs will always pay well; the average salary should go down if the average skill need goes down however. (Ignoring for the moment that some lesser skilled development jobs actually pay better as a result of demand)

If we take ruby, you still have to know ruby, rails, js, jquery, sql, quite a few libs, html, css, be familiar with ie/webkit/firefox, be aware of sql injection, xss, csrf and stuff. Do not forget http, rest, be able to understand caching, dns, proxying, load balancing. It's a lot of knowledge. In 2002 you could get away with a perl script!

use CGI;

Re: U.S. Software developer wages fall 2% as workforce expands

#30

Post by grdvnl »

nknighthb wrote: post #22
grdvnl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think even in the Silicon Valley the salaries other than the selective big guys has not even kept up with inflation. A 2 year-experience developer still gets between 80-100k or less. This is what was being paid in 2000 as well. The situation is probably the same elsewhere. Of course, my numbers above are from my own poor sampling.

I'm not sure what part of 2000 you're talking about, but the middle of 2000 was the beginning of the bust. I don't think that's a good place to take the sample.

Well I am talking about time between 2000 and 2012. Salaries have remained in the same range since then for the most part based on my conversations with people I used to work for then in the Silicon Valley.
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