Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

vagendamag.blogspot.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 82 posts

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#21

Post by carlob »

Swizec wrote: post #13
JonnieCache wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But how is it any different than how men in groups behave towards one another? Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Not that the men on that site were necessarily going to rape the engineer, but it was certainly orders of magnitude more likely than them raping each other. For the record I understand your point and you might be right, she may well be being accepted, but I don't think it's really…

> Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Women do not typically fear sexual violence from men either. Any woman I've ever asked "Do you really live in constant fear from rape as the internet activists suggest" has answered with "Not really, unless I'm going down a dark alley alone at night it doesn't really cross my mind" But y'know, going down a dark alley alone at night, I'm pretty damn on guard…

> Ideal or not, hazing and bullying has worked for countless millennia to distinguish those you can rely on in a tight spot from those you cannot.

So has being in constant danger of being eaten by a large carnivore, why don't you submit yourself to that then?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#22

Post by smoyer »

walshemj wrote: post #10
angersock wrote: post #3

Yep. Sounds like shop talk--amazing how things at machine shops, oil rigs, and construction sites can be very similar at times. The women I know that work in any of those fields tend to either ignore it or join in--depending on their mood. One wonders how things would be different were roles reversed--indeed, what sort of talk was common on factory floors during the world wars?

yes I recall a case in the uk where a young lad was bullied by the mostly female workforce on the shop floor of a factory.

In the mid-eighties I was a process engineer for a printed-circuit-board company whose production staff was predominantly female and with an education level of 10th to 12th grade. I decided I'd be part of the company if I ate my lunch with the rest of the crew, and on the second or third day, one of the "ladies" asked if I was going to eat my banana.

When I responded with "I don't have a banana", she said that sounded like a personal problem and I was asked if I had one every day for months. What I can tell you from that experience is that women can be far raunchier than men - and in this case, I think they had a contest running to see who could make me blush or fluster me the most.

I've been part of the minority in other cases (race, country of origin, gender) and I think that much of this behavior is really related to crowd dynamics. Would the men described in the article behave that way if their SO was present? In any case, this female engineer shouldn't be hazed in this way and while it probably doesn't count for much, I'll still say "I'm sorry" for the behavior of my fellow men.

Let's all try to be a bit more civilized ... and especially here on the Internet!

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#23

Post by onemorepassword »

Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups.

You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd...

Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it's both bullying and sexism.

Yes, I know this is how certain groups of men behave. It also happens to be the same men who's jobs are in danger of permanently disappearing, and this is exactly one of the main reasons nobody gives a shit.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#25

Post by sp332 »

swombat wrote: post #5

Kind of puts the "sexism in tech" discussion in perspective. These guys make the Mad Men lot sound respectful. Here's a simple way they could deal with that - create a new company (or even just a new department within the company), hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk, and slowly grow that department/company to take over the company/industry because it's not full of retards...

The guys (well, some of them) are discussing her treatment behind her back. One of them even apologizes every time he swears in a meeting. That means even the ones who care honestly don't know how women want to be treated in a workplace. (Of course, part of the problem is that they are constructing some kind of universal ruleset without considering her as an individual.)

It seems that no one knew which guys were the jerks before because they acted reasonably when women weren't around. I think the same thing happened in tech circles. There are some major assholes and even creepy stalkers that don't really show themselves until women show up, so they go unnoticed for years by the male majority.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#26

Post by JonnieCache »

Swizec wrote: post #13
JonnieCache wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But how is it any different than how men in groups behave towards one another? Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Not that the men on that site were necessarily going to rape the engineer, but it was certainly orders of magnitude more likely than them raping each other. For the record I understand your point and you might be right, she may well be being accepted, but I don't think it's really…

> Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Women do not typically fear sexual violence from men either. Any woman I've ever asked "Do you really live in constant fear from rape as the internet activists suggest" has answered with "Not really, unless I'm going down a dark alley alone at night it doesn't really cross my mind" But y'know, going down a dark alley alone at night, I'm pretty damn on guard…

>Ideal or not, hazing and bullying has worked for countless millennia to distinguish those you can rely on in a tight spot from those you cannot. The more dangerous the circumstances, the harder becoming accepted by a group seems to be. It's just how humans are.

You're an intelligent guy, surely you realise that this can be used to justify any number of barbaric, animalistic behaviours. I could make up a list of lurid things society should let me do to you and your family by this logic, but like I said, you seem clever enough to imagine them yourself.

As far as I'm concerned this kind of dawkins-style biological reductionism represents the abandonment of enlightenment thinking and I will not stand for it. I am not an ape, and neither are you.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#27

Post by onemorepassword »

swombat wrote: post #5

Kind of puts the "sexism in tech" discussion in perspective. These guys make the Mad Men lot sound respectful. Here's a simple way they could deal with that - create a new company (or even just a new department within the company), hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk, and slowly grow that department/company to take over the company/industry because it's not full of retards...

These guys are disrespectful, insulting and pathetic, but at least she got the job and none of the anecdotes suggest they assumed she was incapable of doing that job.

That's already two steps up from Mad Men territory.

And beside the crudeness, which is more a social class difference than anything else, I don't see how this differs from the reports of sexism in tech. At least she's got the (albeit clumsy and inadequate) support of her employer. They weren't advertising job posts for "brogrammers".

Being less crude than construction workers is not exactly a high standard for tech.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#28

Post by jiggy2011 »

onemorepassword wrote: post #23
Swizec wrote: post #4

I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask. The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another? Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. Reading this, it doesn't…

> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders within groups. You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd... Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for any reason, and in this case it…

By the sounds of the article this is British construction workers we are talking about. They have their own culture which is equally as strange as ours, they literally rip on each other all of the time.

They must find something to tease you about, whether it's being "gay" , your nationality or just the football team you follow.

Unfortunately in this case in the absence of anything else they chose to pick up on her being a woman.

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#29

Post by ivanca »

You are a sexually attractive woman in a place where sexually attractive women are scarce. In almost any other context you would get substancial benefits for that like more promotions, job opportunities and more invitations to events than the average woman. But we will not see you complaining about that when it happens, don't we?

Re: Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role

#30

Post by Swizec »

JonnieCache wrote: post #26
Swizec wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men do not typically fear sexual violence from each other. Women do not typically fear sexual violence from men either. Any woman I've ever asked "Do you really live in constant fear from rape as the internet activists suggest" has answered with "Not really, unless I'm going down a dark alley alone at night it doesn't really cross my mind" But y'know, going down a dark alley alone at night, I'm pretty damn on guard…

>Ideal or not, hazing and bullying has worked for countless millennia to distinguish those you can rely on in a tight spot from those you cannot. The more dangerous the circumstances, the harder becoming accepted by a group seems to be. It's just how humans are. You're an intelligent guy, surely you realise that this can be used to justify any number of barbaric, animalistic behaviours. I could make up a list of luri…

I know I know, bullying is not okay and I agree. But the fact of the matter is we as humans want people to "pay their dues". We are always going to find a way of ensuring that happens.
Post reply on HN