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Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#21

This thing is always coming up, will someone show me some actual evidence and I am not talking some crack pot agent turned whistle blower saying "THAT DO THIS AND THAT", not ECHELON and not the base they are building. I am talking evidence. Logging every single thing? Everything? The data storage that would be required for that is insane. All of these "whistle blowers" have something in common, they are making money…

There has been publicised information (by major news outlets) that points to this for a long time. And Echelon is also not some crackpot's dream. What's to doubt? Even the CIA CTO said at some point that the "record everything they can and keep it forever":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/20/cia-gus-hunt-big-da...

The CIA Chief Tech Officer. What more proof do you need? As if they're gonna let you have a peak at their data centers! If you don't believe they do it at whatever scale it's possible at this point, then you're delusional.

And, no, "The data storage that would be required for that" (logging every call) is not insane by any means. Even a medium-sized corporation could afford it nowadays, and we're talking about the government here.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#23
post #12
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you ever cross them, they have over 10 years worth of every type of your electronic communications to sift through for dirt. Not only do they have all that on you, which gives them some unknown but extremely worrisome level of insight about you, but also on all your friends and family and colleagues. And the likelihood of crossing them keeps growing.

Well I don't deal with them... so I don't care. They don't have to worry about me crossing them.

The point is that you do deal with them, you just don't know about it. You also have to factor in the odds that there will be a false positive affecting you.

Your name might be on a no-fly list, even though you aren't "crossing them." There might be "100% verified" data which links you to some event, as there was with Brandon Mayfield's fingerprints, even though that connection is 100% wrong.

These are all low-probability events. Odds are, you don't have to worry. But every time you have to wait in line for security screening, remember that it's a false positive because they are worrying about you crossing them.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#24
post #10

The first question that comes to my mind - is this technically and economically possible? How many minutes does the average person spend on the phone per day? I found some numbers in the range from 6 to 28 minutes per day. Let's just pick 15 minutes. This times the population of the states (313.9 million) divided by two yields 39,237,500 hours per day. Storing this at 8 kbps requires about 128.5 TiB per day or 45.8 P…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center -- 'alleged to be able to capture "all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Internet searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital 'pocket litter'."'.

That page talks about being able to store (hypothetically) 1 trillion TB.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#25
post #10

The first question that comes to my mind - is this technically and economically possible? How many minutes does the average person spend on the phone per day? I found some numbers in the range from 6 to 28 minutes per day. Let's just pick 15 minutes. This times the population of the states (313.9 million) divided by two yields 39,237,500 hours per day. Storing this at 8 kbps requires about 128.5 TiB per day or 45.8 P…

No doubt that intelligent processing on that scale will be feasible in time, and most likely soon. Opinion surveillance at the scale of a nation is too strategically important. And when it will start happening, it will also apply to today's data.

> And when it will start happening, it will also apply to today's data.

I hope everyone else noticed this as well.

Even if the tech to do crazy analysis does not exist today, the tech to record all the data for future use is quite real.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#26
post #3

My recollection of the NSA's legal interpretation is that they feel they don't need a warrant to record everyone's traffic; they only need a warrant for a human to subsequently access those recordings. The twist this puts on "having nothing to hide" is that it means you have to trust everything you say now will forever be considered benign, rather than just at this particular moment in history. Open Whisper Systems i…

Re: Whisper Systems, do you have an iOS version available or in the works? The icons you used seem to imply it, but I see the source and all examples are for Android only. A quick search for "Whisper Systems iOS" (which was a suggested string) only turns up results about the Twitter acquisition.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#27
post #23
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I don't deal with them... so I don't care. They don't have to worry about me crossing them.

The point is that you do deal with them, you just don't know about it. You also have to factor in the odds that there will be a false positive affecting you. Your name might be on a no-fly list, even though you aren't "crossing them." There might be "100% verified" data which links you to some event, as there was with Brandon Mayfield's fingerprints, even though that connection is 100% wrong. These are all low-probab…

And that's why I have not traveled in years. You're going to harass me, I am not going to play. It's going to hurt the economy, but that's your fault, not mine.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#28
post #26
post #3

My recollection of the NSA's legal interpretation is that they feel they don't need a warrant to record everyone's traffic; they only need a warrant for a human to subsequently access those recordings. The twist this puts on "having nothing to hide" is that it means you have to trust everything you say now will forever be considered benign, rather than just at this particular moment in history. Open Whisper Systems i…

Re: Whisper Systems, do you have an iOS version available or in the works? The icons you used seem to imply it, but I see the source and all examples are for Android only. A quick search for "Whisper Systems iOS" (which was a suggested string) only turns up results about the Twitter acquisition.

Yes, iOS versions of both RedPhone and TextSecure are in the works. The former has been under development for a few months now, while the latter started as a project at the "Spring Break Of Code" event that we organized in Maui.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#29
I've said it before and I'll say it again: anonymity online and encrypted communications are one of the most important problems we're going to going to face in the coming decades. Hackers should be working on those, not clever ways to serve ads or geolocating your latest locally-sourced coffee.

If you don't believe the US is already permanently archiving vast swaths of communication, it's not a big leap of imagination to picture it happening in five or ten years. Likewise the government might not have the computer power to analyze those archives today, but in five or ten years, I'd bet on it.

Some people don't mind that the government stores their emails. "I'm fine with it because I know they're going to catch the bad guys" or "I'm fine with it because I have nothing to hide". Those are certainly powerful (though flawed) arguments for the situation today. Those people are perhaps picturing filing cabinets in some dank warehouse filled with paper printouts of their emails, which due to space constraints will be shredded or forgotten in ten years. The reality is that thanks to technology, what we say today is being stored and archived for-ev-er and can be indexed and retrieved easily and indefinitely. Why does that make a difference? Because today, what you say and do might be lawful. But laws and societies change over time, and the government will still be able to go back and dig up what you said decades ago and use it against you.

That's really what scares me--because today, I, like most people, don't have much to hide. But who knows what laws or culture will be like in 20 years, and what can be used against me that I said so very long ago? Can you imagine working at the WTC and having a bad day, and jokingly sending an email to a coworker about bombing the place because you're so mad. 9/11 happens a year later, the government looks in its archives for the email you sent, and in a post-9/11 frenzy sends you to Guantanamo to "await trial". Or it doesn't even have to go that far; some government spokesperson lets your name slip in an interview as a "suspect" and the media attention you'll get will forever ruin your life even if the government does nothing.

Re: Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

#30
post #8
post #3

My recollection of the NSA's legal interpretation is that they feel they don't need a warrant to record everyone's traffic; they only need a warrant for a human to subsequently access those recordings. The twist this puts on "having nothing to hide" is that it means you have to trust everything you say now will forever be considered benign, rather than just at this particular moment in history. Open Whisper Systems i…

It's not a completely ridiculous legal interpretation. The 4th amendment is implemented via the exclusionary rule, which excludes evidence from a court case obtained from an unreasonable search. As a matter of history and practice (the exclusionary rule predates the Constitution), the 4th amendment is in many ways a rule governing criminal procedure more than it is a privacy rule per se. Now, today the prevailing vie…

> It's not a completely ridiculous legal interpretation.

Legal or otherwise, I'd rather not have money deducted from my paycheck and spent on data centers to store all of my phone calls and email.

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