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If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

theatlantic.com

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Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#21

Post by mcantelon »

SilasX wrote: post #17

Yes, but, (importantly) only if the immigration isn't so rapid that it destroys the cultural and social capital that makes the wealthier countries desirable targets of immigration in the first place. Caplan has very insightful remarks about the benefits of immigration and the inconsistency of current policy on it. But he is unhelpfully silent on the question of the upper bound on ideal peaceful immigration, and yes,…

I get the impression that these "open borders" advocates are utterly uninterested in the fallout in the West. The advantage of open borders for the economic elite is it will likely drive down Western labor costs and will further weaken the union movement. Labor costs and union strength have already been dramatically reduced by globalization: another idea promoted using similar rhetoric.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#22

Post by kzrdude »

tokenadult wrote: post #6

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

Social capital is important in societies. Trust between people, people's trust of authorities, trust between corporations.

When people migrate from regions where there is no trust in the government, it's natural that some of these bring problems with them. You could say it's no fault of their own -- they are used to the authorities being the bad guys and don't care to follow their rules or tax law.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#23

Post by larsonf »

uvdiv wrote: post #7
parennoob wrote: post #3

H'm, I have indulged in this as a thought experiment plenty of times, and actually think it might ease the pressure of immigration, specially on countries like the United States. Although I suppose the complications of things like benefits and medical care make it probably un-implementable in practice. I'm reasonably well off, childless, and if I were given a free choice of any country to emigrate to, I'm fairly sure…

Although I suppose the complications of things like benefits and medical care make it probably un-implementable in practice. There's a case to be made that welfare states are immoral for this reason. If national social guarantees force you to restrict third-world economic mobility, it's not progressive: it's the opposite. Internally it's egalitarian, but globally, it's a group of rich people using force to preserve i…

Absolutely.

I've always thought of this in relation to the outcry against "the 1%" in the US from people outside the country (like Scandinavia, etc). We might be unequal in the US but the One-percenters don't have the right to use deadly force and do not have standing armies. But these so-called egalitarian northern European states have both. (Although I do in fact love Northern European countries and their people, I'm just pointing out the strangeness of the position.)

In many ways we'd see a massive US if borders in all countries were opened. The author of the piece hints at this as well. Many groups will still lose out, but the laws will be uniform and will add to efficiency. I feel like the British Colonies were a good example of this.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#24

Post by lobotryas »

tokenadult wrote: post #6

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible.

Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?).

Even if you find a solution, you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality. Now you are facing a protest and political movement composed of immigrants and their citizen sympathizers who are demanding the ever-popular "justice, equality, etc". For a recent example see the illegal immigrant Debate in the US. Southern illegals are already entering the US (illegally) as if the borders are open, already face discrimination and restricted rights and already have a political movement to fight for things that matter to them.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#25

Post by davidw »

lobotryas wrote: post #24
tokenadult wrote: post #6

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

It's worrying to see that Caplan thinks his "keyhole" solutions are politically feasible. Let's say you let the genie out of the bottle and allow open immigration with several restrictions (higher taxes, no right to vote) for this new group of immigrants. First you have a problem with deciding when to lift these restrictions (10 years, a test, only the next generation?). Even if you find a solution, you will be breed…

> you will be breeding resentment due to imposed inequality.

Telling those people to stay the hell out isn't exactly winning you any points either.

In any event, political article, consider flagging.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#26

Post by tokenadult »

rayiner wrote: post #19
tokenadult wrote: post #6

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

I've never seen a good idea come out of George Mason's econ department, and Caplan is no exception. They push the kind of head in the clouds politically oblivious oblivious economics that became passe outside hack thinktanks years ago.

rayiner, aren't you from an immigrant family yourself? It would be really helpful to have your perspective on this issue, so either by an edit of the parent comment here, or by a new reply below, why not follow the model of Paul Graham's essay "How to Disagree"

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

and tell us point-by-point what you think is incorrect about Caplan's policy proposals?

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#27

Post by rayiner »

1337 wrote: post #12

This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: ( http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in.... ) 1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something…

People don't like to hear it, but this is true. Part of what makes America successful is Americans. Community and culture, not just capital. When my dad left Bangladesh, he did so partly to get away from Bengalis.

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#28

Post by auggierose »

A special case of this question is that the destination of the immigration is the US. Let's assume this, and let's also assume that an immigrant is magically and automatically converted into a proper US citizen (believing in women's rights, having gay buddies, etc.). Now imagine that EVERYONE outside of the US immigrates to the US. Because nobody would be left outside of the US, the US could expand to cover the entire planet. The real question now is: Is the US self-sustainable, i.e. can it function totally on its own?

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#29

Post by MarkMc »

tokenadult wrote: post #6

I've thought about this for a long time, as an American who twice lived overseas as a bona-fide long-term resident of another country. My wife, a first-generation immigrant to the United States, is just one of many examples of first-generation immigrants to the United States I know, from many countries. From the article: "George Mason economist Bryan Caplan, whose writing at EconLog inspired Naik's interest in open b…

"If the U.S. or another wealthy nation were to see a sudden large increase in immigrants from these countries, it's possible that the new populace will vote for bad policies in their new home."

Then perhaps the solution is to not give them the vote, at least at first. Here's an example: Australia decides to set up a new city on an isolated part of its coastline. It accepts very poor immigrants from anywhere and pays them very low wages to work in factories. They cannot vote for 20 years and cannot move to any other part of Australia, but they can choose to return to their country of origin at any time. The city is administered and policed by Australians.

The idea is to repeat the experience of Hong Kong where British rule mixed with cheap immigrant labour produced very rapid rises in standard of living. It's basically the same as the Charter Cities [1] proposed by Paul Romer, except that the city is located in the rich country rather than the poor one.

[1] http://chartercities.org/concept

Re: If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?

#30

Post by danboarder »

1337 wrote: post #12

This comment over at Bryan Caplan's blog pretty much sums it up nicely: ( http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2013/02/open_borders_in.... ) 1. Poverty is endogenous to population, not exogenous. Admitting a flood of poor immigrants to your country makes your country poor. All this stuff about being born on the wrong side is misleading, because the difference between the two sides is not natural resources or something…

As someone who has visited Haiti multiple times and has read the history, the above comment is way off base. Read "The Uses of Haiti" by Paul Farmer to get an in-depth understanding of how Haiti went from being the first Republic in the Western Hemisphere that was thriving to one of the poorest. Some find the facts difficult to accept, including exploitation and externally orchestrated political coups, even when the facts are agreed upon by historians the world over. Yet we have misinformation lines like the above "Haiti may be a dump but the Haitians made it that way" still going around. It's shameful, really.
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