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Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

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Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#21

Post by gcheong »

rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

Well it seems you considered it was safe to be honest with your boss because you felt you had a good relationship with him but in reality you found out it was only predicated on your apparent dedication to him. I think it's better to find these things out sooner than later.

"my medical condition was not accommodated" That would have seem to have been grounds for some legal action in my opinion or a least a good reason for getting unemployment benefits after you left.

"Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter,..."

Yeah, you could have ended up married to her...

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#22

Post by stavrianos »

paulgb wrote: post #17
randallsquared wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs and cats can and do lie, by trying to cover up things they've done (literally, usually), and by trying to direct your attention away from where it's covered up.

How do you define lying, though? Does the animal have intent to deceive, or does he just have a cause/effect memory that makes it behave in ways we anthropomorphize as lying? I've seen some dogs do some pretty clever things, and I think they have more brains than most people give them credit for, but I don't think they intentionally deceive.

I don't think it's obvious that something having "intent" is distinct from something having a sufficiently complex cause/effect memory engine.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#24

Post by MrGunn »

DaniFong wrote: post #18

I think in some sense that Blanton is advocating an intellectually lazy kind of radical honesty. It's not communicating to excrete whatever verbalizations come to mind because there is no one thing on your mind. You are forced to censor, or at least edit, what you say, by the limitations of the channel. The real value, I think, in honesty, is that it brings one's thoughts out in the open to work with, instead of sapp…

If we could learn not to reward people who are essentially better liars, it would be great!

One step removed from that is to just admit what you're thinking to yourself. You can leave a facade up for other people if necessary, but at least stop trying to fool yourself.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#25

Post by tokenadult »

jonas_b wrote: post #6
rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

I find this interesting because I myself have had a great improvement in my relationship with my dad and some of my friends just by being able to communicate more directly. My dad actually told me a few days ago something he had learned from a friend, that anything that you say to another person with absolute sincerity and respect is, in fact, a gift to the other person. And I'm starting to believe him. I would be ve…

absolute sincerity and respect

The tough situation in life is only being able to be sincere when expressing disrespect, because the other guy deserves disrespect. What do you think about this? (I'll treat your honest answer as a respectful answer, whatever you say.)

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#26

Post by paulgb »

randallsquared wrote: post #20
paulgb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define lying, though? Does the animal have intent to deceive, or does he just have a cause/effect memory that makes it behave in ways we anthropomorphize as lying? I've seen some dogs do some pretty clever things, and I think they have more brains than most people give them credit for, but I don't think they intentionally deceive.

If you're asking if I think the dog is consciously lying, then no, because that presupposes consciousness (that is, that the dog is a person). Do I believe that the dog is engaging in the same behavior that in a person we would call "lying"? Yup. Intent only matters if there's someone to do the intending. Deception, however, is an activity that needs no intention -- it evolved before consciousness.

If it doesn't require intent, would you consider Batesian mimicry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batesian_mimicry ) "lying"? Or does it have to be in the form of behaviour to be a lie?

(I'm not trying to argue a point here, just being curious. I'm not sure how I'd answer these myself, but I find this interesting to think about. Thanks for making me think :) )

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#27

Post by paulgb »

stavrianos wrote: post #22
paulgb wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define lying, though? Does the animal have intent to deceive, or does he just have a cause/effect memory that makes it behave in ways we anthropomorphize as lying? I've seen some dogs do some pretty clever things, and I think they have more brains than most people give them credit for, but I don't think they intentionally deceive.

I don't think it's obvious that something having "intent" is distinct from something having a sufficiently complex cause/effect memory engine.

Good point. That's partly what I'm trying to figure out.

My internal argument goes something like this: on one hand, if the behaviour is the same how can you claim the intent is different? But on the other hand, how do you define deceptive behaviour without intent?

Here's a thought experiment: suppose someone had no short-term memory but had a dog who was trained to ask (as dogs do) for his meal each day. If the dog decided one day to ask for an extra meal, is he lying, or is he responding to a reward? And if the answer is that he isn't lying, because the dog doesn't differentiate indicating he hasn't eaten (which would be a lie) and asking for a meal (which wouldn't), isn't this true of any way that a dog could "lie"?

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#28

Post by randallsquared »

paulgb wrote: post #26
randallsquared wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're asking if I think the dog is consciously lying, then no, because that presupposes consciousness (that is, that the dog is a person). Do I believe that the dog is engaging in the same behavior that in a person we would call "lying"? Yup. Intent only matters if there's someone to do the intending. Deception, however, is an activity that needs no intention -- it evolved before consciousness.

If it doesn't require intent, would you consider Batesian mimicry ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batesian_mimicry ) "lying"? Or does it have to be in the form of behaviour to be a lie? (I'm not trying to argue a point here, just being curious. I'm not sure how I'd answer these myself, but I find this interesting to think about. Thanks for making me think :) )

I dunno. I'm not sure there's a bright line between Batesian mimicry and behavioral lying, but I haven't thought about it much.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#29

Post by gcheong »

petercooper wrote: post #12

I hope someone else can remember this, but wasn't there a link around here recently (possibly elsewhere) about how it was speculated that the ability to lie was thought to distinguish us from other animals? That is, lying is a concept associated with intelligence? Of course, I could be wrong, and am merely trying to make a point without standing behind it, so that I can avoid the humiliation of being called out on it…

Koko the Gorilla seems to lie intentionally.

'She lies when it suits her. "Who broke the kitchen sink?" one of the staff asks her. Koko indicates another staff member, whirls about and starts to laugh.'

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_12_131/ai_n85...

Even Alex the Parrot seemed to intentionally give wrong answers to questions when he was bored with a task.

Re: Radical Honesty: I Think You're Fat (2007)

#30

Post by PieSquared »

thismat wrote: post #16
rcs wrote: post #3

I can say, w\o hyperbole, that radical honesty ruined my life. Do not, I repeat do not believe that people are generally good, want to help you, will appreciate your honesty. Now, I didn't do anything stupid like telling my boss that I'd like to sleep with his daughter, but, when he asked me where I saw myself in 5 years I did say that I wanted to start my own business. Our relationship went from great to icy. Over t…

I practice this on a daily basis as I don't even believe in using lying as a social tool. Sometimes it's best to not saying anything when you don't have a good answer, or the answer is inappropriate.

Lying through silence is still lying.
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