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Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

forbes.com

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#21
post #3

If Bitcoins are valued at around $100 dollars a piece is it possible for me to make a $10 dollar purchase using bitcoins?

Yes, they can be subdivided by up to eight decimal places.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is the mining needed at all? If we can keep subdividing them, shouldn't 1 bitcoin theoretically be sufficient?

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#22
post #17

How many articles have been posted to HN now saying this exact same thing? We get it. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a currency. However, the problem is not with the currency system but rather the people buying and selling BTC. Bitcoin itself has everything it needs to become a legitimate currency. The author also may not have realized that the coins are divisible (to 10^-8) and that all Bitcoins…

>We get it. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a currency. Collectibles are a very specific kind of commodity. The price of potatoes doesn't vary because there are potato enthusiasts out there extolling their virtues.

or so you think... ;)

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#23
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison is obviously to a single type of item. Say "Mauser HSc, excellent condition, provenience unknown". But there's no reason why individual bitcoins can't acquire additional value once history accrues to them. Let's say celebrity X publicly buys a bitcoin and spends it in a well-publicized event. People will probably bid extra to acquire this "famous" bitcoin afterwards.

Bitcoin doesn't work like that. There isn't some sort of serial number assigned, or anything.

Each bitcoin has an attached chain of transactions. If it's a matter of public record that a certain address belonged to say, Stephen Colbert, then you can definitely brag that you own Colbert's bitcoin. (That he donated to the Libertarian Party or something.)

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they can be subdivided by up to eight decimal places.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is the mining needed at all? If we can keep subdividing them, shouldn't 1 bitcoin theoretically be sufficient?

"Mining" is really accounting. Miners add new blocks to the blockchain which provides for verification of transactions and the value of individual addresses. So providing a reward to mining (initially) was a means of providing a reward for performing an essential function for the bitcoin economy. Now that more bitcoins are in the wild it's possible to collect transaction fees, the second method by which miners can profit from their activity. Eventually the transaction fees will be more than the mining reward and the theory is that miners will remain in business in order to collect those fees.

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#25
Bitcoin isn't a great form of money right now, but that doesn't mean it can't be in the future.

I predict a lot more of these bubbles, but over the long term, unless it's displaced by a better system (which is certainly possible) or regulated out of existence, the trend will be upwards and greater stability.

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#26
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is the mining needed at all? If we can keep subdividing them, shouldn't 1 bitcoin theoretically be sufficient?

"Mining" is really accounting. Miners add new blocks to the blockchain which provides for verification of transactions and the value of individual addresses. So providing a reward to mining (initially) was a means of providing a reward for performing an essential function for the bitcoin economy. Now that more bitcoins are in the wild it's possible to collect transaction fees, the second method by which miners can pr…

Ah interesting, that makes sense. Can miners set their own transaction fees? And related if I want to make a bitcoin transaction can I (or my software) choose which miners to use to verify those transactions? Or are those fees determined by the protocol itself?

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#27
Of course bitcoins value is volatile, it's relatively new and being adopted and accepted. I blame the people speculating on it like crazy without any idea what the fundamental value actually is (and to be fair it's impossible to know until it stabilizes and the bitcoin economy becomes established.)

But this is only temporary, a necessary evil when a currency is starting out.

However it is arguably a good thing though, because all the attention and people buying it hoping it will increase in value, is exposing a lot of people to it that otherwise wouldn't have been. It's helping it grow much faster.

>To replace our entire dollar base money with Bitcoins would require that each Bitcoin be valued at more than $370,000.

I'm confused by what he means by this. Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. Even if there was only one bitcoin in the economy it could still be used perfectly fine as a currency.

>In contrast, a good monetary control system would fix the value of the currency unit (in terms of gold or something else real) and then adjust the size of the monetary base on a moment-by-moment basis in order to maintain this value in the markets.

This doesn't really make too much sense either. It takes a long time for arbitrary changes in the currency supply to have any effect. And all they can do is print more money, which makes everyone else's money worth less and therefore makes them worse off.

One interesting thing I've been thinking about is that since it's digital currency inflation and deflation can be corrected for a little. People could have their sites change prices based on the current inflation or deflation rate (if they really care about it so much.) This was harder to do with real world price tags. It's not a solution of course but it might help a lot. Usually the criticism of changes in a currencies value is that prices don't adjust fast enough to deal with it. But with the internet information is transmitted and changes can be made instantly.

>No modern economy could survive the constant, grinding deflation that having a fixed monetary base would eventually produce.

So this is more controversial, but I don't see why not. A currency that actually increases in value rather than decreases would have a huge advantage over everything else. Because if you had a choice what would you store your money in? It also insures that bitcoins can never artificially be devalued by any central organization. Sure new bitcoins can be mined, but that's heavily limited and a necessary evil to distribute the first bitcoins fairly.

As for them being collectibles that may be true for some people, but they have a few very good advantages to them that can't be beat by other currencies and that insures they will always have a use as a currency with some people. Mainly that they are anonymous and don't have transaction fees. I have seen a lot of interesting uses for them that would be unfeasible in real world currencies. Like people giving each other small tips over the internet.

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#28
post #17

How many articles have been posted to HN now saying this exact same thing? We get it. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a currency. However, the problem is not with the currency system but rather the people buying and selling BTC. Bitcoin itself has everything it needs to become a legitimate currency. The author also may not have realized that the coins are divisible (to 10^-8) and that all Bitcoins…

>We get it. Bitcoin is being treated as a commodity instead of a currency. Collectibles are a very specific kind of commodity. The price of potatoes doesn't vary because there are potato enthusiasts out there extolling their virtues.

I think that collect-ability doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. This is a classic asset bubble, and people could really care less what the actual asset is.

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I believe that they could be changed to divide even further if necessary in the future.

That bitcoins are infinitely divisible is one of the ways in which problems associated with deflation are mitigated once the 21M bitcoin cap is reached. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#Won.27t_loss_of_wallets_and_t...

Divisibility doesn't really help with the overall money supply however. There's also the loss of currency that occurs from loss of Bitcoin wallets.

Even without deflation I think there would still be problems with high variance of BTC just from the psychological aspects of the currency. With central banks you can at least say that there are persons whose job it is to watch currency exchange rates and take one or more of many available actions to curb both inflation and deflation. As far as I can see you just don't have that with BTC (and by design). You can't increase the money supply, any action to decrease the money supply is permanent, and how can you change interest rates for loans when all of the money is already issued?

I just can't imagine BTC being useful for transactions in general (especially important stuff like payroll) when the inherent variance in value seems to require systems akin to what a high-frequency trader would use. It might be useful as a commodity for similar reasons that gold is (but with the improvements that come from its high divisibility).

Re: Bitcoins Are Digital Collectibles, Not Real Money

#30

I hope it's not considered ad hominem to point out that the man who wrote this piece considers fiat currency in general a mistake: http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2013/03/06/the-fia... Dude is just really into gold, which apparently has intrinsic value?

"Without integrity, nothing works." That's not a law of the universe, and what does it even mean besides? Like, formally, what does it mean to economics? Sounds like nonsense to me.
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