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The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

economist.com

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Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#21

Post by darxius »

pfedor wrote: post #13

The decision to enter a PhD program only makes sense for one of the two reasons: either you think you're going to win a Nobel Prize one day, or, you don't mind spending five years in a way which doesn't advance any goal (literal quote from a conversation I had, "so you had an offer from Google but you decided to do a PhD instead--why??", "Oh, I just want to do nothing for a while longer".) The two kinds of PhD studen…

This is a very ignorant and short-sighted response. While I agree that getting a PhD is not for everyone, you can't make a blanket statement regarding its uselessness.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#22

Post by lallysingh »

pfedor wrote: post #13

The decision to enter a PhD program only makes sense for one of the two reasons: either you think you're going to win a Nobel Prize one day, or, you don't mind spending five years in a way which doesn't advance any goal (literal quote from a conversation I had, "so you had an offer from Google but you decided to do a PhD instead--why??", "Oh, I just want to do nothing for a while longer".) The two kinds of PhD studen…

As a relevant data point. I did a PhD because I wanted to learn a lot more about Computer Science. I did most of it while working at pretty good software development firms. Most of the people I work with have PhDs. They use some of what they studied at work, and I doubt undergraduates would be nearly as effective.

There are a lot of advantages for PhDs in CS, if you like learning and studying. If you don't, there's really no reason to do a PhD, you're not going to get an outcome that you'd like. The types of jobs that work well for PhDs require (at least) some continuing research.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#23

Post by anologwintermut »

minimize_me wrote: post #2

I do sometimes wonder if this "PhD is a waste of time" is being pushed so heavily to get a glut of the best computer science grads, who would otherwise consider a PhD, onto the engineer job market. A cute little trick to drive down the salaries a bit, cut back on the perks... I mean, people posting links like this, on this board, don't really have English lit grads in mind, do they? Not that I disagree with the senti…

On HN I doubt it. I'd say we keep seeing the stories up here because people want to validate that they took the right choice. I'd personally say your better off doing that by convincing yourself you are working on something useful, not by shitting on other's choices. It would be the equivalent of justifying a PhD by saying "I don't think our best and brightest should be trying to get people to click on ads."

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#24

Post by rayiner »

pfedor wrote: post #13

The decision to enter a PhD program only makes sense for one of the two reasons: either you think you're going to win a Nobel Prize one day, or, you don't mind spending five years in a way which doesn't advance any goal (literal quote from a conversation I had, "so you had an offer from Google but you decided to do a PhD instead--why??", "Oh, I just want to do nothing for a while longer".) The two kinds of PhD studen…

Look at the interesting things Google is doing. Driverless cars is headed up by Sabastian Thrun (PhD). The technical lead on Google Glass is Thad Starner (PhD and professor at my alma mater). Heck, Page and Brin were halfway through their PhD program at Stanford (both have an MS from there) before they founded Google. PageRank was exactly the kind of thing that comes from PhD projects (extension and application of theoretical principles to new areas). And Dr. Starner has been working on wearable computing for two decades.

All these things didn't just appear out of nowhere because Google hired a bunch of bright fresh college graduates.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#25

Post by modarts »

tensor wrote: post #20
ideonexus wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I concur. My experience with CS PhDs is that they lack the production-oriented mindset needed for the real world. We hired a CS PhD to write reports for us. In six months he did not write one single line of code, but produced a very impressive whitepaper about the code he intended to write. He went on to write more whitepapers for a company specializing in vaporware somewhere else. I've had similar experiences with P…

Meanwhile, the top tech firms aggressively recruit CS PhDs.

Well, more power to them. They have the resources to train them up to a level where they'll be productive.

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#26

Post by ericd »

arunabha wrote: post #6
magic_haze wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is just a continuation of the old "College is a waste of time" thought, but I have noticed a _lot_ of people -- especially from China and India -- enrolling in CS PhD programs the last few years. I talked to a few of them from my college, and an exceedingly common theme seems to be family and peer pressure, so personally, I'd really like to understand more about this topic.

An important, but rarely overtly stated reason for foreigners to attend grad school in the United States is immigration. A graduate degree (esp in STEM disciplines) is a relatively secure way of getting a student visa, getting a job while on OPT, getting an H1B and finally a Green Card. Of course it does not mean that immigration is the sole reason for asians to attend US grad school in hordes, but it is an important…

I don't understand the motivation there at all - shouldn't the US be trying to hold on to the most educated foreigners as much as possible?

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#27

Post by seunosewa »

crucifiction wrote: post #9

As a hiring manager of non-specialized software developers, I take people with 4-6 years of real world coding over a phd any day. We generally hire phd's at the same level/pay as a bachelors in cs with maybe only a nominal amount more in salary. the skills you learn as a phd are not really what the industry needs, unless you manage to find one of the small number of jobs that requires whatever specific thing you stud…

Perhaps PhDs just need to be paired with real world coders to be productive?

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#28

Post by larsberg »

shawn-butler wrote: post #17
klochner wrote: post #5

A computer science Ph.D. is nothing like what is described in this article. For various reasons (other opportunities, generous industry grants, minimal financial overhead to run a lab), students in computer science are comparatively well paid and free to work at their own pace. YMMV based on advisor. It's been exhaustively shown that stopping after undergrad or masters degrees will be more financially lucrative, so s…

I would limit that to just #2 in your list. The other two carrots are so out of your reach or subject to factors so far beyond your control that a love for learning and a burning interest in your research is the only thing that you can count on sustaining you.

#1 is also pretty achievable. For example, if you get a Ph.D. studying how to implement compilers and virtual machines, you basically have your choice of which place that implements compiler or VMs to work at (source: I am about to defend my Ph.D. in implementing compilers and VMs).

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#29

Post by asynchronous13 »

This article was pretty good at identifying drawbacks of higher education. (unlike the recent article by the literature PhD)

There's so many assumptions surrounding a PhD degree. "I'll make more money!" Maybe, but it takes a lot of years to make up for making $0 for several years. "the only jobs for a PhD is in academia" depends on the subject, last I checked google hires lots of PhDs. "I'll only work 5 hours a week!" just because you only saw your professor when you showed up for class does not mean those were the only hours your prof was working. "PhDs are super smart!" maybe, or they're just good at jumping through hoops.

The article pointed out that there is a glut of PhDs compared to available academic jobs. But then laments that only 57% of PhD students finish the degree within 10 years. The author seemingly argues that more people should graduate sooner, and increase the glut?

It's not about smarts, self-motivation and leadership are required to finish a PhD. If someone expects to have their hand held and be told what to do, they might never finish.

The article also says that these students are the smartest of their class. If that's true, then they are smart enough to view the job market and weigh the pros and cons of higher education themselves. (if they can't do that, then I'd argue they are not the brightest in their class after all)

Re: The Disposable Academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time (2010)

#30

Post by ChuckMcM »

seunosewa wrote: post #27
crucifiction wrote: post #9

As a hiring manager of non-specialized software developers, I take people with 4-6 years of real world coding over a phd any day. We generally hire phd's at the same level/pay as a bachelors in cs with maybe only a nominal amount more in salary. the skills you learn as a phd are not really what the industry needs, unless you manage to find one of the small number of jobs that requires whatever specific thing you stud…

Perhaps PhDs just need to be paired with real world coders to be productive?

Having worked with a number of PhD and non-PhD people over the years I've not observed any correlation between "skill" and "years of education."

That said, its always to pair up new hires with real world coders to help them become productive quickly.

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