Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#21

Post by arethuza » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 11:54 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #17

arethuza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't those kinds of industrial research jobs also usually require the kind of publication track record that you have to acquire in academia to survice? Do industrial research labs really employ freshly minted PhDs - who probably haven't acquired the most important skill in modern research: the politics of attracting funding/backing?

> Don't those kinds of industrial research jobs also usually require the kind of publication track record that you have to acquire in academia to survice? Yes. > Do industrial research labs really employ freshly minted PhDs - who probably haven't acquired the most important skill in modern research: the politics of attracting funding/backing? Yes. How do you expect freshly minted PhDs to learn the art of attracting f…

The black arts of attracting funding seems to be what junior academics spent considerable amounts of time doing when I worked in academia - mind you that is going back a bit so wouldn't surprise me if things have changed a lot.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#22

Post by arethuza » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 11:57 AM UTC

thomasjames wrote: post #16

arethuza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't those kinds of industrial research jobs also usually require the kind of publication track record that you have to acquire in academia to survice? Do industrial research labs really employ freshly minted PhDs - who probably haven't acquired the most important skill in modern research: the politics of attracting funding/backing?

It is actually very common to go to a research facility after a PhD. Anyone with a doctorate from a reputable program will have a list of publications that demonstrate a clearly defined interest and quite possibly even grants. For those that aren't at the level of a research scientist, there are often post-doctoral fellowships. If the companies are large enough, grants are less of an issue because there is a built-in…

I did know some colleagues who went to work for large corporates in research labs - but they seemed pretty rare in the UK. Most stayed in academia or left to work in finance - and some even left to found startups (like me!).

Out of interest, what are some examples of the "research facilities" you are talking about?

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#23

Post by sc0rb » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 11:58 AM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #12

sc0rb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

Were they actually using anything specific from their PhD? The research they did was directly relevant to some part of the HFT application?

No. That's got nothing to do with anything though. My wife has a degree in maths and works as a project manager at a big consultancy, I have a degree in comp sci and write Java all day. How many people really work in areas closely aligned with what they studied? I've used to no discrete math or graphs where I work...

I'm just showing you how it's possible to do a PhD then get a good paying job at the end. This removed the worry of missing out on 5 years of salary.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#24

Post by sc0rb » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 11:59 AM UTC

simonh wrote: post #10

sc0rb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

Interesting. I wouldn't have though Java was suitable for HFT due to garbage collection pauses playing havoc with your system determinism and performance reliability. I supported a derivatives trading system written in java that was canned due to performance issues, and where I am now we had java FIX protocol gateways that we've replaced with C++ components, again for performance reasons. I'm not saying java has perf…

Plenty of word class trading systems are running Java.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#25

Post by arethuza » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 12:05 PM UTC

sc0rb wrote: post #23

arethuza wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they actually using anything specific from their PhD? The research they did was directly relevant to some part of the HFT application?

No. That's got nothing to do with anything though. My wife has a degree in maths and works as a project manager at a big consultancy, I have a degree in comp sci and write Java all day. How many people really work in areas closely aligned with what they studied? I've used to no discrete math or graphs where I work... I'm just showing you how it's possible to do a PhD then get a good paying job at the end. This remove…

I'm just curious as to why an employer is keen to have people with PhDs - simple credentialing to make selection easier?

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#26

Post by chewit » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 12:10 PM UTC

norswap wrote: post #6

I've been recently faced with the same choice. I'm finishing my master's degree (in Europe, where a master is a prerequisite for a PhD). There were a combination of things that decided me. One is that a PhD is not that much of an asset in the workplace. Especially considering the consequent time investment. Another is that you have to deal with all the BS of academia: doing research that doesn't interest you with you…

I'm not sure whether you mean mainland Europe but in the UK, it is not necessary to have a masters degree to do a PhD. It is probably advisable but not a prerequisite.

Like you however, after I did my masters and spent 6 months on my own research project, I realised that a PhD would not be for me and went into industry.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#27

Post by sc0rb » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 12:27 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #25

sc0rb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That's got nothing to do with anything though. My wife has a degree in maths and works as a project manager at a big consultancy, I have a degree in comp sci and write Java all day. How many people really work in areas closely aligned with what they studied? I've used to no discrete math or graphs where I work... I'm just showing you how it's possible to do a PhD then get a good paying job at the end. This remove…

I'm just curious as to why an employer is keen to have people with PhDs - simple credentialing to make selection easier?

Maybe that's one reason. I think there are other reasons too.

Why do people want degree graduates? Because it shows they can finish things, because it shows they are smart? because it shows they have drive? Many reason are given for hiring grads.

Somebody with a PhD in comp sci would have pretty much proven they are good with very difficult problems and have the drive to see things through to completion.

What qualities do you think it takes to finish a PhD? Some employers seek out those qualities and a PhD is a good indication that you have those qualities.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#28

Post by sc0rb » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 12:42 PM UTC

drcross wrote: post #11

sc0rb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

and in doing so sold their souls to the devil.

Why wouldn't you for a few years with an exceptionally good salary and immense technical challenges to overcome?

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#29

Post by thomasjames » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 12:58 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #22

thomasjames wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually very common to go to a research facility after a PhD. Anyone with a doctorate from a reputable program will have a list of publications that demonstrate a clearly defined interest and quite possibly even grants. For those that aren't at the level of a research scientist, there are often post-doctoral fellowships. If the companies are large enough, grants are less of an issue because there is a built-in…

I did know some colleagues who went to work for large corporates in research labs - but they seemed pretty rare in the UK. Most stayed in academia or left to work in finance - and some even left to found startups (like me!). Out of interest, what are some examples of the "research facilities" you are talking about?

IBM T.J. Watson, IBM Dublin, Oracle Labs, Google Mountain View, PARC Inc.,... there are some other ones that are more specific to HPC.

Re: Why (Not) Do a PhD in Computer Science?

#30

Post by VLM » Mon, Mar 18, 2013, 1:11 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #10

sc0rb wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of three PhD's in comp sci that went straight into Goldman Sachs (and one hedge fund) where they immediately started earning far more than those of us that left Uni with our Bachelors. They work in high frequency trading mainly using Java.

Interesting. I wouldn't have though Java was suitable for HFT due to garbage collection pauses playing havoc with your system determinism and performance reliability. I supported a derivatives trading system written in java that was canned due to performance issues, and where I am now we had java FIX protocol gateways that we've replaced with C++ components, again for performance reasons. I'm not saying java has perf…

I'm surprised they'd do it all in one language. High level decisionmaking in a high level language, simple low level execution in a low level language.