Live data from Hacker News

The Ugly American Programmer

codinghorror.com

21–30 of 69 posts

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#21
I'm Turkish and I have to agree for the most part.

Technical CS terms in Turkish get invented by a handful of academics. Since this is a pretty close knit community, the jargon does not get socialized very well and leads to unwieldy, inorganic words. I don't live in Turkey, so I pretty much don't have a chance in hell of understanding Turkish CS speak.

That said, there might be some language communities out there, large enough to be self sustaining. Chinese seems like a good candidate. The fact that there is a Chinese clone of Atwood's Stackoverflow also supports this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=537246

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#24
When I've heard programmers criticised for the "ugly american" behavior it is not about the use of english as a technical lingua franca. The ugly american programmer is one who embeds english chauvinism into the user experience of their software. This includes lack of unicode support, and support for locales and internationalization.

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#25
post #20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. English is not my native language but I just do everything in English. Code, documentation, blogs, requirement docs, etc. Really, everything. Is this even remotely controversial these days?

I don't think so within the EU (perhaps in France ... chuckle), but I suspect it'd be more problematic in for instance Japan, Korea or China.

It might have something to do with the installed base of the language, so to say. Large languages like French, German, Japanese and Chinese may have an expectation that people should learn their language.

Small countries like Iceland, the Netherlands and Denmark can't possibly expect anyone to learn their petty language that can't be used anywhere else, and thus realise that they have to learn English if they want to communicate outside their borders.

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#26
post #25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so within the EU (perhaps in France ... chuckle), but I suspect it'd be more problematic in for instance Japan, Korea or China.

It might have something to do with the installed base of the language, so to say. Large languages like French, German, Japanese and Chinese may have an expectation that people should learn their language. Small countries like Iceland, the Netherlands and Denmark can't possibly expect anyone to learn their petty language that can't be used anywhere else, and thus realise that they have to learn English if they want to…

I think it's that plus literary tradition. The Netherlands isn't actually that small population-wise, but it has a long tradition of its best minds (e.g. Spinoza, Erasmus) writing in the lingua franca of the day. Even though there are only four times as many people in France as the Netherlands, I'd guess there's more than twenty times as much written and published in French.

Edit: Interesting note -- if Dutch, Flemish and Afrikaans are all considered the same language, then Dutch has around 30 million native speakers.

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#27
post #16

Eric Raymond: it was reported to me at the time that English has a richer technical vocabulary than any other language and is therefore simply a better tool for the job Or probably English is simply the most easy to learn.

Well, English does have a larger technical vocabulary than most other languages. Admittedly, this is more because English accepts other languages technical words into the language, so therefore (to some extent) is the union of the technical language.

With this in mind, i would not call English easy to learn. There are far too many special cases and bizarre twists to get to true fluency (it might be east to get to a passable spoken version, though).

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#28
post #26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might have something to do with the installed base of the language, so to say. Large languages like French, German, Japanese and Chinese may have an expectation that people should learn their language. Small countries like Iceland, the Netherlands and Denmark can't possibly expect anyone to learn their petty language that can't be used anywhere else, and thus realise that they have to learn English if they want to…

I think it's that plus literary tradition. The Netherlands isn't actually that small population-wise, but it has a long tradition of its best minds (e.g. Spinoza, Erasmus) writing in the lingua franca of the day. Even though there are only four times as many people in France as the Netherlands, I'd guess there's more than twenty times as much written and published in French. Edit: Interesting note -- if Dutch, Flemis…

Interesting and valid point, but I think it only applies to some countries. Søren Kierkegaard, Niels Bohr and Hans Christian Andersen all wrote in Danish (to my knowledge at least) and the Icelandic Sagas were written in Icelandic. So a portion of small countries that have good English skills don't seem to have that tradition.

Bjork does sing in English though :-)

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#29
post #10

This really doesn't need discussion. English is simply the language for science and computer stuff, just as latin used to be in the past (not for the computer stuff, but for science).

Another example of this would be in music composition where Italian is the language used (to describe tempo, dynamics, etc.) regardless of native tongue.

I'm not an expert, but I would suspect there many disciplines have a language that is commonly used, and it so happens that Comp Sci happens to be English.

Re: The Ugly American Programmer

#30
This post gives me the overpowering urge to write a rebuttal in Japanese just to prove that an American can.

Let me hum a few bars: if your customers don't speak English, and your colleagues don't speak English, and your business partners don't speak English, then your refusal to use languages other than English cannot be justified by it being efficient. It is hubris to think otherwise -- an arrogant sort of laziness of thought which is entirely different from the productive laziness that programmers generally cultivate.

A programmer who cannot talk to his colleagues and customers, and blames his inadequacy on them, is a failure at his profession : writing code which solves problems for people. If you only get as far as "writing code" without understanding the people and their problems, congratulations, you fail.

On the plus side, the prevalence of attitudes like this means you can do pretty well for yourself if you're bilingual. I got stopped on the train today by the guy who got me my current job (random coincidence -- we live in adjacent small towns). He started the conversation like he always does "Hey, Patrick, how's work? Say, do you know any bilingual engineers looking for employment?"

This week apparently its an aerospace project that needs them. Its always something -- there's hundreds of billions in trade happening between the US and Japan every year, huge portions of it are high-tech, and engineers here are only marginally better at speaking English than engineers in America are at Japanese. (In my experience, though, they're not aggressively proud of being ignorant.)

Post reply on HN