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Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

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Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? The French entrepreneur cares about free trade, not much else. And I can't see Britain or Europe shutting down trade, regardless of whether Britain sticks around or leaves.

My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area).

EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agriculture/fisheries (which is what suits Norway about it), and a "voluntary" contribution that de-facto replaces EU dues. Would that satisfy UK politicians' reasons for pulling out of the EU, if they still had to pay dues and harmonize most of their legislation anyway, only without getting a vote in return? It's not clear to me they would join the EEA under those terms. And in the other direction, there's a lot of uncertainty over what they'd even have the option to join, since there's a real possibility some EU members would veto an agreement to give them an intermediate status.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#22
post #19

Can anyone comment on what it's like to run a startup or a smaller high-tech outlet in France? Taxes, social insurance / humangous vacations, bureaucracy matters - the boring day to day stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one playing with an idea of moving to Europe, so a first hand account would be much appreciated.

Sure. Low (or even no) taxes on yearly income if you locate your startup well (e.g. put it in an area that gets subventions or tax cuts, checkout so-called ZFU aka Zone Franche Urbaine). If you're innovating (which is, really, an administrative term, that you can put anything under), you'll get tax rebate on the salary mass that you dedicate to R&D. Even further, your startup can be labeled as a 'young innovating company' (JEI, aka Jeune Entreprise Innovante) and you get even more benefits.

I (with others) operate a startup with entities both in France and in the US. It is cheaper for us to leave R&D in France because of the subventions mentioned above.

Sure, you'll still get plenty of taxes and the euro is strong, which may be good or bad depending on your activities.

PM me if you need more details.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#23
I've set up a business in Australia, average 2 days, and in Austria where the average is 25 days (and it went way over that for me) and I am not sure I'd do it again in Europe besides perhaps the UK. It's not so much the time and frustration, which is indeed wasted going to I think it was 4 different locations in 7 or 8 trips, but the shocking hostility of the process and people. It made me feel very unwelcome.

There is also a dearth of funding and a much smaller culture of philanthropy. Although those two are not really relevant to my project, jkl.io, as I am not taking funding and looking for philanthropy from places other than Austria.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#24
Some incorrections here and there in the article, I want to add some fixes:

- I wouldn't say the exigence of having a bank account is humiliating for a company. The process of opening one can be, however. But you can pick up any bank you want in any EU country you want. They can't "discriminate" against say a Luxembourg bank if you think this bank will serve you better. That's the EU market- same currency, and they can't change you fees for sending/receiving money from/to EU countries. I have a french bank, and I really like the idea of a conseiller - I want a single person I can talk to. Previously I had a bank which worked differently - I basically saw a different person every 6 month, while I had complex stuff that needed to be done and lost time reexplaining everything again and again. Now I have had one person for the last 3 years, that get things done by email, fax or phone. I like that. And when I decided to take my business to some other bank because it worked even better (phone service 24/7, with a limited number of person handling your case because you conseiller can't work around the clock) I never even had to go there in person- did that while travelling abroad, sending scans of my ID documents, having the account ready 24h later, having the paperwork they sent in return waiting for my signature at home since they just wanted a physical signature too.

BTW you know why there's so much red tape with french bank? bankers are legally responsible if you launder money using their services and if they didn't ask you basic questions designed to flag such cases. Some take risks, some don't. If you see a bank involved in a big scandal, pick it - it usually means it has less red tape, serves customers better, but some con men abuse it. If you don't care about the reputation of your bank (I don't) you get efficiency.

- the address fees depend on the company you create. For some corporate types it will be fully free to change your address as much as you want, and you can "upgrade" your startup to any type. You may want to start as a Autoentrepreneur (personally liable), then switch to a EURL, then a SARL, then a SAS - you'll pay almost nothing for the first 3 types.

EDIT: someone posted this link to compare them: http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telecharg...

- for the step 2 and 3, I'm sorry to disagree here, but why didn't you file online instead? That's usually simpler - there are also what is called "unified" centers usually within ursaff offices to do everything in one place, with civil servants who know their job and can even check and fix basic mistakes in your file - for free! The whole process exist so that you can get the legal numbers (for tax, payroll, vat) within a day!!

- accountants sucks, and there's worse- whether you do your accounting or whether they do it, any mistake there is - it's your responsibility. The taxman will go after you anyway, it might be a good idea to learn the basics yourself, if only to avoid poor service. If you take an accountant you get a tax break (especially for the less complicated corporate forms) but take some "for dummies" guide and you're ready to go.

I'm french, and I wouldn't say the process is overtly complicated when you have some experience doing it. It's sometimes quite efficient - I have one person in the tax office who knows my file and cell number, who I can call if I have any specific question, and who can call me back if there is any problem.

Also we have great laws: for ex, between companies, an exchange of emails can constitute proof of contract, like a signature. You don't need as much paperwork if you know the law.

The real problem is the corporate environment - your company may work with french company and customers. Most of them are not even worth the euros they'll bring. Make sure you add the customary letters at the end of each bill, reminding them that any overdelayed payment will result on late fees + interest.

Personally, unless I personally know the guys or the company that need my services, I don't take french clients anymore. Been burnt too many times on too many technicalities.

I've had the pleasure to bill a HN company (hello there if you read this!) - a pleasure to deal with.

EDIT : some corrections

All things considered, I should let you know I am examining the corporate situation in Canada, to have a place where hiring (and firing if needed) might be less problematic, along with companies that may be more pleasant to work with when I need outside help, or as clients.

Hiring in France is taking a real risk. You don't want to hire in France - you don't want to hire any one, at any salary. Just don't do it, trust me.

Also, Europe has some new demons recently- there's a lot of hate going on there, especially in France, now with casual aggression too (not even for the money) etc. When I visit mainland France, I play a game with friends, sitting at a cafe terrace : we watch people shop etc, and we make bets: mine usually is whether we would see someone getting beat up within 1 hour - and I won every single time, in the center of Toulouse - (in)famous city, last year at the same time a guy was shooting down schoolchildren and their teacher, because they were jewish. My mom was attacked twice these last 2 years - with a knife, in the city center. A cop got the guy - well, two of them, because the one who caught it was stabbed 13 times and was sent to the hospital. The guy was released from jail because of a technicality in the prosecution. Racism and hatred are rampant, cops are giving up on some neighbourhoods, etc. I'm not talking about hearsay here, but from a personal account. I trust my mom. Now she has had a new passport made - one that doesn't say "France" on it, and might get used if the situation gets too bad.

Some compare the situation in France to NYC of the 1980, prior to the introduction of tougher laws. I don't really know how to understand it. It's complicated. There are basically groups of people growing apart from each other, and hating eachother more and more - a bad recipe for any country.

If physicial safety is something you value, try to spend 6 month there first, to see if it is something you can live with - especially if you are a female founder considering any big city suburbs (cheaper rend, tax breaks for ZFU, etc).

I added these little warnings after proofreading my text, because I realized I was painting maybe a too rosy picture: there is no paradise on earth, and creating your company in France won't be as complicated as some make it sounds, if you like french food you'll love it there, but for what I value life is much better on the other side of the atlantic.

You are free not to trust a single word of what I say - just go live there and try to make a decision by yourself.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area ). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agri…

That page on the EEA seems to imply that members have to stick to EU laws - particularly around freedom of movement, which is one of the main reasons some UK politicians are keen on leaving the EU.

Personally, I think that any move to leave the EU would probably contribute to a break up of the UK.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#26
Can anyone explain European rubber stamp-fetishism? Has there ever been a study done showing that rubber stamping practically everything (20 euro purchase at an electronics store) is effective in preventing forging of documents? To an outsider visiting continental Europe the practice looks redundant and almost comical.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area ). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agri…

That page on the EEA seems to imply that members have to stick to EU laws - particularly around freedom of movement, which is one of the main reasons some UK politicians are keen on leaving the EU. Personally, I think that any move to leave the EU would probably contribute to a break up of the UK.

It's absolutely non-sensical to want to be part of a common market but to not do what's necessary to actually create a common market. You can't cherry pick what you want.

Freedom of labor (which necessitates freedom of movement) is just as much part of a common market as freedom of capital is.

If the UK wants to leave the EU but, for example, keep freedom of capital they will be told off. If they don't want to accept some harmonization process of laws (which is necessary or else it's real simple for individual governments to erect barriers in the market) they will be told off.

If they are out of the common market they are out. You can't be half in and half out. And good riddance to them.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#29
Just don't start a company in France, at least not if you can avoid it which is the case for most startups (just go to Luxembourg or whatever). Not for the one week hassle, but because if you're looking for investors or if you want to sell it later, you and they'll have to pay close to 70% taxes so it will be a tough sell. Also, if you need to hire employees you will have to go through the expensive hell that is managing/hiring/firing employees and the crazy expensive taxes. Just not worth it.

The only case where you could start a company is if you're a one man shop freelancing startup (or a non-startup that needs to start a company for physical reasons such as a grocery store etc). Just my two-cents.

Re: Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

#30
Dealing with banks in France is a humiliating experience even if you're not a company. They have way too much unchecked power and, ultimately, treat you like a criminal. For example, if you do an international bank transfer, you might get a phone call to explain it. If they don't like the explanation, they will freeze your account. They even freeze accounts if you get an unusual bonus from your employer and they find it odd for some reason.

French people seem to find it all normal because they grew up in this system, but people that come from abroad quickly learn to be terrified of French banks.

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