Live data from Hacker News

Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

21–25 of 25 posts

Re: Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

#21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... I am someone who agrees with most of the statements made by the author (and if you don't, try spending ten hours in one day trying to catch up on five days of email and failing: the emotional response you have to "thanks!" changes pretty quickly; even still, though, I usually can't really fault the sender), but that voicemail example was just inane: if he doesn't want voicemail, he should turn it off... he ca…

"try spending ten hours in one day trying to catch up on five days of email and failing: the emotional response you have to 'thanks!' changes pretty quickly" I actually have the opposite reaction: when I'm trying to catch up on e-mail, any message that I can read and delete in a couple of seconds gives me a sense of relief. And the fact that it's a personal thank-you rather than some outdated notification from a buil…

I feel like if I had a more finite amount of email I would feel that way. I know I used to. I actually get tons of "blank emails" from users leaving my app open in their pocket and sending an email (something difficult to control due to Apple's remote view setup, and a restriction that Cydia can't come with Substrate). I used to feel those totally no-action-item-at-all emails were great, but then I ended up having hundreds of them, now thounsands. The result is that I finally just feel anger and try to pre-filter them (which isn't 100% effective as users have custom signatures that are long or complex sometimes).

I think I felt the same way with thank yous, but now they seem like a penalty, a cost I incur if I respond to a user and solve their problem. I think of it more like my job is to help as many people as possible in the time I have, and every X thank yous is one less legitimate question or bug report I'm able to find.

My response has been to do everything I can to rely on "indirect solutions". Like, if I can cause a user to get a refund email from PayPal, I know they don't need me to also tell them (in fact, by this same moral, we might even call the duplicate rude at this point ;P). That massively cut down my "thanks!" responses.

(Yes, I realize with even more email technology I might be able to better cheaply outsource the filtering. I am working on that. At some point, though, you wonder why you can't just solve the problem at the source ;P.)

Re: Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

#22

Apologies, but I'm shocked by the self-centered, entitled crap I see here; most if not all of those annecdotes speak to the self-important, self-absorbed nature of modern society. (Side note: this isn't just my opinion - there's a decent amount of research on the growth of narcissism in modern scotiety. Look at the work of Dr. Jean Twenge, for example) A small example: >My father learned this lesson last year after l…

Another indication of Mr. Bilton's self-centeredness and entitlement is that he posts tons of articles from his own NY Times blog (and nothing else) to HN, assuming that we all want to read it: http://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=nickbilton Other than those posts, his total contribution to HN was one comment made over a year ago. It's a bit ironic that someone who can't even be bothered to listen to his father's…

Not as bad as some people, but still:

(http://imgur.com/OxrsFTP)

Re: Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

#23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"try spending ten hours in one day trying to catch up on five days of email and failing: the emotional response you have to 'thanks!' changes pretty quickly" I actually have the opposite reaction: when I'm trying to catch up on e-mail, any message that I can read and delete in a couple of seconds gives me a sense of relief. And the fact that it's a personal thank-you rather than some outdated notification from a buil…

I feel like if I had a more finite amount of email I would feel that way. I know I used to. I actually get tons of "blank emails" from users leaving my app open in their pocket and sending an email (something difficult to control due to Apple's remote view setup, and a restriction that Cydia can't come with Substrate). I used to feel those totally no-action-item-at-all emails were great, but then I ended up having hu…

[deleted]

Re: Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

#24
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"try spending ten hours in one day trying to catch up on five days of email and failing: the emotional response you have to 'thanks!' changes pretty quickly" I actually have the opposite reaction: when I'm trying to catch up on e-mail, any message that I can read and delete in a couple of seconds gives me a sense of relief. And the fact that it's a personal thank-you rather than some outdated notification from a buil…

I feel like if I had a more finite amount of email I would feel that way. I know I used to. I actually get tons of "blank emails" from users leaving my app open in their pocket and sending an email (something difficult to control due to Apple's remote view setup, and a restriction that Cydia can't come with Substrate). I used to feel those totally no-action-item-at-all emails were great, but then I ended up having hu…

Forgive me, but the problem isn't the source.

I don't want to live in a world where people are shunned for expressing their gratitude.

The problem here sounds like you're ill-equipped for the demands placed on you. (And, possibly, that anyone in your position would be, so I'm not trying to be snarky here).

If I were your manager (not that you have one, but hypothetically) – I would surmise that the issue is that your position is under-staffed or that you have too much on your plate as an individual worker.

Sure, technology might offer some solutions, but if it's to the point that you resent expressions of gratitude from your users, you're losing the ability to empathize with them and that begins to be dangerous from many perspectives.

Further, honestly, you lose something more when you avoid and/or lose that customer contact and that perception of responsiveness from a real person – people like immediate, self-service options, but they also value knowing there's a responsive human out there, ready to fix whatever imaginable problem they may face. That sort of thing wins and retains customers, users, etc.

--

"I think I felt the same way with thank yous, but now they seem like a penalty, a cost I incur if I respond to a user and solve their problem. I think of it more like my job is to help as many people as possible in the time I have, and every X thank yous is one less legitimate question or bug report I'm able to find."

As a final point, I just reject the idea that the time and cognitive load from one (or even a dozen) thank-you emails is equal to the time required for a question or bug report, so I doubt the gravity of the problem to begin with and maintain that there's more afoot here than simply over-demand for constrained resources.

Re: Disruptions: It is rude to send a "Thank You" e-mail.

#25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like if I had a more finite amount of email I would feel that way. I know I used to. I actually get tons of "blank emails" from users leaving my app open in their pocket and sending an email (something difficult to control due to Apple's remote view setup, and a restriction that Cydia can't come with Substrate). I used to feel those totally no-action-item-at-all emails were great, but then I ended up having hu…

Forgive me, but the problem isn't the source. I don't want to live in a world where people are shunned for expressing their gratitude. The problem here sounds like you're ill-equipped for the demands placed on you. (And, possibly, that anyone in your position would be, so I'm not trying to be snarky here). If I were your manager (not that you have one, but hypothetically) – I would surmise that the issue is that your…

> Forgive me, but the problem isn't the source.

I said that somewhat facetiously, purposely adding a ";P". I mean, to the extent to which I believe the problem is the source, it is that I am living in a culture that seems to require people to say "thank you" in order to not 1) feel ungrateful or 2) make the other person think you are ungrateful. That either of the players believes that that "thank you" is required (to the extent that people seriously say things like "thanks in advance" if they feel that a reply later will be difficult... that's just bullshit ;P) does seem like a problem, but as I live in a culture that does this, I play by those rules.

The one concession I make to my reality is that I tend to go out of my way to make certain that when I say "thank you", you feel thanked: I don't just say it as a trite addition to a conversation, I make it clear and emphasized, and I try to get eye contact; if at all appropriate (such as dealing with a customer support person) I make it clear why I thanked the person in order to underscore just how much effort I'm putting into it over what some people who say "thanks".

I will then point out both that I had said "even still, though, I usually can't really fault the sender" and how I went to great lengths to describe my attempts to solve these problems indirectly by 1) adding better filtering, 2) working on technical solutions that better allow outsourcing the problem of e-mail ingress triage, and 3) figuring out ways to avoid the thank you from happening in the first place (such as avoiding solving a problem in a way that causes them to get an e-mail).

> Sure, technology might offer some solutions, but if it's to the point that you resent expressions of gratitude from your users, you're losing the ability to empathize with them and that begins to be dangerous from many perspectives.

I like to presume that every user I've helped is grateful (unless of course they send me back a nastygram in response). To assume otherwise and to only get that feeling if they send you a "thank you" seems like an overly negative way to live life. I mean, its nice to get the occasional "thank you" (especially from someone who put a lot of thought into it), but if it's to the point where to "empathize with people" (seriously?) and to feel you've helped them you need to obtain silly expressions of it, there's probably something horrible that has gone wrong.

> Further, honestly, you lose something more when you avoid and/or lose that customer contact and that perception of responsiveness from a real person – people like immediate, self-service options, but they also value knowing there's a responsive human out there, ready to fix whatever imaginable problem they may face. That sort of thing wins and retains customers, users, etc.

So, to verify: you think that a user who sends an e-mail to someone's personal e-mail account in English (or Chinese, or whatever) in long-form asking for a refund, who then receives that refund, is going to assume that a computer took care of that issue, instead of a human? That just doesn't make any sense to me at all... I would find it much more believable if you told me that a non-negligible number of people using an actual self-service option (a term you seem to be mis-applying) believed there was a human who processed all of the requests (a statistic that may even be true).

> As a final point, I just reject the idea that the time and cognitive load from one (or even a dozen) thank-you emails is equal to the time required for a question or bug report, so I doubt the gravity of the problem to begin with and maintain that there's more afoot here than simply over-demand for constrained resources.

I can only assume that I'm trying to run a company with many more users than you on margins much lower than you (assuming you are running a company at all, which is not clear). I would easily receive many hundreds per day of varyingly complex versions of "thanks" if I sent a "Done. -J" to every issue I fixed. Even doing what I can to avoid sending e-mail, I still send out hundreds of e-mail messages.

In reality, the time it takes to solve a user's problem is usually a tiny fraction of the amount of time it takes to read their e-mail to figure out what they want me to do: it is figuring out what they want to do from long-form English that takes so much time, and just because the e-mail starts with "thanks!" doesn't mean that somewhere in there isn't another issue. (Hence why I feel the real technical problem is to better automate that, something I had a lot of time to make a lot of progress on about half a year ago during a major activity lull.)

Post reply on HN