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Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

philliphaydon.com

21–30 of 36 posts

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What utter crap. Would you rather go back to the time when only the children of the wealthy would be educated by private tutors and the children of the poor (who couldn't afford to have their children educated to even basic standards) went into work as soon as they were able? Without school how do those kids get an education? Their parents are probably working all hours to make ends meet so they won't be able to prov…

The problem is, just because they sit there all day long doesn't mean these kids are getting an education (in American schools). My wife is a teacher, it's 80% babysitting and discipline.

20% actual education time is damned good. Getting children to sit still for twenty minutes is hard, getting them to listen as well is appallingly difficult. And after twenty minutes you may be talking but they're not listening. Even with motivated adults 20 minutes is about the limit of how long a lecture csn hold one's attention.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#22

School is not about education, it is about childcare and about indoctrination and socialisation. Some education occurs but that's not what school is for .School is for getting people to do as they're told, when they're told to, for inuring people to being ranked and judged. http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

What utter crap. Would you rather go back to the time when only the children of the wealthy would be educated by private tutors and the children of the poor (who couldn't afford to have their children educated to even basic standards) went into work as soon as they were able? Without school how do those kids get an education? Their parents are probably working all hours to make ends meet so they won't be able to prov…

"Would you rather go back to the time when only the children of the wealthy would be educated by private tutors and the children of the poor (who couldn't afford to have their children educated to even basic standards) went into work as soon as they were able?"

That is not entirely a thing of the past. My zoned high school in New York City only graduated about a third of its incoming students when I was a teenager (I was fortunate enough to go to a more well-funded school). What do you think those high school drop-outs were doing? Some were in gangs, others were out working. There are still families that are so poor that they start pressuring children to work as soon as the law allows it.

"Without school how do those kids get an education?"

A large number of those drop-outs are only barely literate, and only barely able to do basic arithmetic. The question is not, "How can they be educated without school?" but rather, "How can they be educated?" We still struggle with that issue.

"basic numeracy and literacy skills a child needs to function in society."

As it turns out, the minimum literacy skills needed to function in society are taught somewhere between 2nd and 4th grade. You do not really need to be able to read at a more advanced level for many lines of work, where your vocation training is entirely hands-on and where you have calculators or computers to do your arithmetic and logic. My mother is a blue-collar worker, and some of her coworkers are only barely literate enough to fill out incident reports (she often has to help them). You do not even need to be literate to vote in a national election.

The problem with being uneducated is not that you cannot live -- people with no income can still survive in our society. The problem is that an uneducated person is at a great disadvantage in our society, being cut off from opportunities and being easily taken advantage of by educated people. Uneducated people are far more likely to waste money on the lottery. Uneducated people are far more likely to forfeit their right to remain silent if they are arrested. Uneducated people are far less likely to attain leadership positions or financial security.

Unfortunately, the public education system as it exists today utterly fails to give people the minimum education needed to avoid all of the above. I suspect that giving people the education needed to be leaders or compete effectively in our capitalist system (or, heaven forbid, to change that system) is not even a goal of the education system. Vocational training is not a goal either -- trade schools are popular for a reason. If you were to ask me, I would tell you that the goal of our education system is to produce compliant workers who accept their place in a rigid social hierarchy. It is not just the "bad students" who are punished in school; students who master the material of a course and then stop bothering to show up are equally punished, even when their teachers are fully aware that they are bored. Low grades -- in the D or even F range -- are given for failing to do homework, regardless of the education value of that homework. Punishments are doled out for insubordination, regardless of what it was that the student was doing (e.g. a student who was smoking pot in a bathroom will be punished the same as a student who cut class to go to the computer lab and learn how to program).

Really, this is a problem of values. We do not value education. The people in power, who received a quality education that focused on teaching them how to think, have little interest in ensuring that poor people learn anything other than compliance. If the goal were to ensure that people are learning to think, we would not be using structured tests where the precise subjects to be covered are known in advance to evaluate academic progress (nor would we be pressuring teachers to deliver high scores on those exams).

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#23
post #19

This is a reoccurring theme on HN and in the programming subculture in general: rowdy kid drops out of school, gets written off by well-meaning adults, learns to program, goes on to start a highly successful tech business, and then writes a blog post railing against the school system. While I totally agree that the schooling system is outdated and primarily a way to socialize children, what programmers tend to forget…

I think the only reason we see this in the programming subculture is because it's mostly programmers who are here reading these discussions and writing these blog posts.

I used to go to school with a guy who dropped out of school at 15, having failed year 11, get a job working outside, did a part-time course, ended up in an apprenticeship, worked a few years, started his own business, sold it, he's 28 now and owns his own house without a mortgage...

Put him in front of a computer and the most he can do is use facebook and play video games.

That's a single case, but there's millions of people just like him, and there's millions of people who are missing out on having a good life because we told them they aren't intelligent enough to go to university simply because they weren't good at one thing at school.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#24
post #8

I hate these articles that argue for drastic changes in schooling without the deep analysis those changes deserve. It takes a certain kind of arrogance to go from "I wasn't good at X" to "X is useless; let's get rid of it." I also struggled in high school because I couldn't choose my own curriculum (as do a lot of people), but what school reinforced in me is the concept that not everything in life is easy - successfu…

"I could go on about all the benefits of a standardized"

I could just as easily go on about the detrimental effect of standardized education. The executive summary is this: societies do not advance when everyone thinks the same way as everyone else.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#25

"Schooling in general is a waste of time because it caters to this idea that life evolves around English, Math, Art, Science and General Knowledge. But real life doesn’t, and these things don’t help children figure out what they are good at or enjoy." Sorry to nitpick, but how can life not evolve around General Knowledge which, ostensibly, includes all knowledge. Agree with the sentiment, disagree with the argument.…

Maybe generalizing like that is bad. Take English for example: In school we used to analyze poems from World War 1 / 2, and we had to explain why the poet used this word, that sentence, this style, etc. The truth is, there's no English Answer. The person wrote what he felt, what he smelt, saw, heard, etc. He felt that those words and sentences best described the what he wanted to say. Yet we butcher these poems on sp…

"Yet we butcher these poems on speculation and assumptions. We don't learn anything from this in my opinion. The entire process of analyzing books/poems/movies in English class is silly."

I have conversations with people (adults) who clearly never had to do these things (or any other similar study of the written word). It's like having a conversation with a child; they miss puns, subtext, irony, sarcasm, struggle to consider more than one conflicting opinion at a time, struggle to interpret beyond the purely literal and struggle to communicate their own thoughts to others. An inability to communicate beyond such a low level is crippling.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, just because they sit there all day long doesn't mean these kids are getting an education (in American schools). My wife is a teacher, it's 80% babysitting and discipline.

20% actual education time is damned good. Getting children to sit still for twenty minutes is hard, getting them to listen as well is appallingly difficult. And after twenty minutes you may be talking but they're not listening. Even with motivated adults 20 minutes is about the limit of how long a lecture csn hold one's attention.

"Even with motivated adults 20 minutes is about the limit of how long a lecture csn hold one's attention."

A lecture is not the only way to educate people. Yes, lectures are boring, but discussions are not and in college and grad school I have been in discussions that went long past the scheduled end time for a class. There is no reason that could happen in high schools as well.

Yes, things are different below a certain age. Most people who hated school talk about how much they hated high school and perhaps middle school. There is a period of time where people start to want to think independently, but where our education system is based on teaching everyone to think the same things. Compliance and conformity are the goals in American schools; education is secondary, mostly a side-effect of teaching compliance.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#27
post #12

School is not about education, it is about childcare and about indoctrination and socialisation. Some education occurs but that's not what school is for .School is for getting people to do as they're told, when they're told to, for inuring people to being ranked and judged. http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

Yeah, and the moon landing was faked, and there's fluoride in the water to keep us all meek. Right. Cause we're obviously all so good at doing what we're told in this country. OH WAIT.

Speaking as an outsider, and without wanting to start comparing other countries, the citizens of the US do actually appear to be very good at doing what they're told by the government; the range of political opinion and so forth amongst the citizenry typically exists within an extraordinarily narrow band as laid down by the government.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#28
post #7
post #2

I couldn't agree more.

I couldn't agree less. If you can't write a proper essay, then you can't write a paper on the new algorithm you invented, you can't write legible documentation for the library you wrote, and you can't argue effectively about the merits of one technology vs. another (change out the terminology for whatever communication is required in your field). Basic math (up to and including algebra and geometry) is used all the t…

"Should we try to help people who don't do well in traditional school environments? Definitely. But that doesn't mean we throw out traditional schooling"

Traditional schooling is the cause of the problems people have in school. Keeping it, but making special exceptions for people who are bright but failing, is like having a tow truck drag your car to work in the morning because you did not want to take it to a mechanic.

In an American school, the goal is to have all the students think the same way. We have laws that reinforce that goal at all levels of government. All students learn basic algebra and basic trigonometry. Very few learn Euclidean geometry, and almost none learn non-Euclidean geometry. A math teacher is not in any way free to decide their curriculum; the curriculum is given to the teacher, who forces it upon the students. A standardized test is given to all students at the end of the year, and it always has the same format, same subjects, and similar questions.

That is not a system meant to educate people or to promote their ability to think; it is a system meant to train people to be like everyone else. It is not just that we settled on that because we lacked alternatives. We chose this approach because the people in power did not consider teaching the population how to think to be a priority. If they had considered it to be a priority, standardized testing would have been rejected early on, if it had even been thought of in the first place.

"you have to test kids, otherwise you can't know if they're actually learning anything"

Giving everyone the exact same test, or variants of the same test with all questions being asked in the same way, does nothing to test their academic progress. Anyone can be trained to take a test when the format, subject matter, questions, etc. are all known in advance.

If you want to test people in a meaningful way, you need to give them problems they never encountered before, in formats they never encountered before. Otherwise you are just as likely to identify well-educated students as well-trained students, and you will lack any way to measure the difference.

"Taking literature in college when you're in a CS program is more than dumb"

Only if you think the purpose of college is vocational training. The idea that people go to college to receive job training and job credentials has been extremely destructive to higher education. It is not just that humanities departments are being slashed; in the CS department at my alma mater, computability and algorithms were the only theoretical courses. Compilers had been offered a few years before I arrived, complexity theory was not taught at all, and programming languages was just about different language features without any discussion of type theory. When I asked the department chair why the curriculum was so easy, the answer was that only a handful of CS students actually enjoyed learning CS, and that the department could not afford to have the other students leave as a result of rigorous standards. Those "other students" were only there for job credentials.

If you want vocation training, get a two year associates degree. That will save you time and money, and you will not be part of the wave of destruction that is ruining higher education.

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe generalizing like that is bad. Take English for example: In school we used to analyze poems from World War 1 / 2, and we had to explain why the poet used this word, that sentence, this style, etc. The truth is, there's no English Answer. The person wrote what he felt, what he smelt, saw, heard, etc. He felt that those words and sentences best described the what he wanted to say. Yet we butcher these poems on sp…

"Yet we butcher these poems on speculation and assumptions. We don't learn anything from this in my opinion. The entire process of analyzing books/poems/movies in English class is silly." I have conversations with people (adults) who clearly never had to do these things (or any other similar study of the written word). It's like having a conversation with a child; they miss puns, subtext, irony, sarcasm, struggle to…

Interestingly, I have come across at least a couple of people who took great pride in being extremely literal about what they are saying.

One person explained that he did not want to be misunderstood and thus will always speak literally. (He, unfortunately, seemed to expect other people do this too. Which didnt happen all that often. Ergo misunderstandings)

Re: Everyone should get the opportunity to program, but school is a waste of time

#30
post #19

This is a reoccurring theme on HN and in the programming subculture in general: rowdy kid drops out of school, gets written off by well-meaning adults, learns to program, goes on to start a highly successful tech business, and then writes a blog post railing against the school system. While I totally agree that the schooling system is outdated and primarily a way to socialize children, what programmers tend to forget…

I think the only reason we see this in the programming subculture is because it's mostly programmers who are here reading these discussions and writing these blog posts. I used to go to school with a guy who dropped out of school at 15, having failed year 11, get a job working outside, did a part-time course, ended up in an apprenticeship, worked a few years, started his own business, sold it, he's 28 now and owns hi…

And for every million like him there are a hundred or two hundred million who are not as driven, motivated, talented.

People who are successful despite being uneducated are outliers. Stories like OP (and Bill Gates and countless others) are stories. Anecdotes. Single data points that are meaningless without context. Deciding to forego an education based on such stories is a risky game.

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