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An Atheist's Glimpse of God

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Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#21

Post by doorhammer »

hnriot wrote: post #11

Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.

I think the title is intentionally somewhat provocative (which might justify some distaste, depending on your personality. I didn't really mind because I had a good idea what the author was getting at from the title).

That said, I didn't see anything in the post that would lead me to believe the author was espousing a belief in God or having found religion. I'd pretty much say the opposite according to these sections:

My frustration with the inclusion of Buddhist beliefs such as reincarnation, kalapas, and omniscience -- we were told to ignore these beliefs if we so chose; I ignored them.

I'll leave you with what attracts me most to this bizarre practice: It is ordinary.

There are no gods, there are no drugs, there is no magic

I also tend to think that the notion of wasting time is hugely subjective.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#22

Post by Florin_Andrei »

btilly wrote: post #13

Disclaimers. I am also an atheist. I took this exact meditation course 20+ years ago and know people who have followed it for decades. I am not so enthralled. The meditation itself is fine. However the problem is in the tapes. Goenka is not just trying to teach people to meditate, he's trying to teach a particular religious philosophy. He doesn't want you to just be aware of your body, he wants you to pay attention t…

As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the psychological work.

I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma attached to it. I found that whether I "believe" in it or not is irrelevant. Meditation itself is far too fascinating to get distracted with extras.

Another way to look at it is that some dogmatic aspects may not represent literal truths, but are metaphors for certain psychological aspects occurring in meditation or as an effect of it. This appears to be a very appropriate interpretation for many pantheons - heck, even the Greek gods are quite obviously representations of states of consciousness and functions of the mind, and the ancient greeks were not exactly famous for their meditation techniques.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#23

Post by Florin_Andrei »

hnriot wrote: post #11

Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.

Not all speech is literal.

I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#24

Post by hnriot »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #23
hnriot wrote: post #11

Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.

Not all speech is literal. I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.

even if you read it metaphorically, it makes the same amount of sense.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#25

Post by agentultra »

xutopia wrote: post #16
agentultra wrote: post #5

So you sat on some stones under extreme physical duress. Congratulations. Your puny mammalian brain acted in a manner dysfunctional from its normal operating environment. Now you can go to parties and feel even more superior to your friends. They won't get it of course because there's no way for you to accurately explain it to them.

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html "Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation."

I would say such things to the author in person. I have said such things to people who've professed to me special insight from such benign activities. I think they're kidding themselves and bullshitting other people when they do it.

I responded to everything I read in the original article. The author claimed humility but what I read was not indicative of someone whose motivation is to be humble. The author claimed to have learned something from the experience and draws eir conclusions from eir own bias.

I would consider my response aggressive but not uncivil and certainly not undeserved.

Now if you meant to point out that my criticism was not constructive then touché. Here's my suggestion then: don't let your personal bias influence your writing, author, draw your conclusions from your observations. Share what it was like to be at the centre. Everything you described indicates cult-like activity: what about it indicated that it was not a cult? How can you argue that is true?

I think any sort of spiritual experience is best kept to oneself. No matter your intentions you will come off as humble-bragging if you try to explain your experiences and insights to others. I don't appreciate the new-age, spritiual, self-help "industry." I think it's a scam and intellectual fraud. Anyone who offers spiritual insight is probably lying for one. And if they're offering it at a price then they're scamming you.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#26

Post by nimblegorilla »

Florin_Andrei wrote: post #22
btilly wrote: post #13

Disclaimers. I am also an atheist. I took this exact meditation course 20+ years ago and know people who have followed it for decades. I am not so enthralled. The meditation itself is fine. However the problem is in the tapes. Goenka is not just trying to teach people to meditate, he's trying to teach a particular religious philosophy. He doesn't want you to just be aware of your body, he wants you to pay attention t…

As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the psychological work. I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma attached to it. I found that wh…

I've been doing transcendental meditation. I imagine its roots are from a "religious background", but I don't feel like there are any religious elements. There are only a few dogmatic rules such as don't eat 2 hours before/after meditating.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#27

Post by Florin_Andrei »

hnriot wrote: post #24
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all speech is literal. I find myself making this admonition over and over again, when speaking to folks in the computer industry. Occupational hazard, I guess.

even if you read it metaphorically, it makes the same amount of sense.

to you.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#28

Post by Florin_Andrei »

nimblegorilla wrote: post #26
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As things are right now, any meditation technique worth the effort is coming from one or another religious background. So there is going to be some infusion of dogmatic elements into it. At least some schools are honest about it and tell you to feel free and ignore the mythology and focus on the psychological work. I practice a different meditation system, and they have their own dogma attached to it. I found that wh…

I've been doing transcendental meditation. I imagine its roots are from a "religious background", but I don't feel like there are any religious elements. There are only a few dogmatic rules such as don't eat 2 hours before/after meditating.

Actually, the stuff about eating is quite practical. It's quite noticeably harder to meditate well when your belly is full.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#29

Post by javert »

EvilTerran wrote: post #4

Very interesting. Incidentally, I do like: Ninety percent of Maslow's pyramid has been taken care of for as long as I could remember, leaving me to arrogantly believe it's my responsibility to improve this world -- that resembles a feeling that often brings me angst, but I always struggle to put into words.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read Maslow's original work.

Looking at Maslow's pyramid, way more than 10% of it has to do with very abstract stuff. Given what the author has written, he almost by definition hasn't achieved "self-actualization" in the sense Maslow means. He almost by definition hasn't achieved 90% of the pyramid.

Only a small part of the pyramid has to do with food, shelter, clothing, and having people to socialize with.

Re: An Atheist's Glimpse of God

#30

Post by javert »

hnriot wrote: post #11

Self contradictory title. Once again we're mixing up chemical imbalances (however induced) with this notion of a Creator. If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time, the most precious resource you have.

> If there really is this God thing, then do you really think they give a damn about you sitting on hot rocks? If you do, then you've really missed the point of it all. If you don't then you'll quickly realize you're just wasting your time

What you said is logically analogous to, "There are no cars in the parking lot, but if you think there are cars in the parking lot, you have to think they are blue."

In other words, blatantly illogical.

You can't reason about the properties of a false hypothetical (unless you think that it's not a false hypothetical).

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