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Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

theatlanticwire.com

21–30 of 262 posts

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#21
I guess it's time to muddy the waters. The truth is in the middle!

Of course, the entire debacle can be summed up with the following exchange:

Q: "How many miles did you have left to drive on the final leg?"

Broder: "61"

Q: "And how many miles did your car tell you that you could travel before recharging?"

Broder: "32"

Of course, Broder claims that Tesla told him it was OK to leave. I think this is bullshit, but will never know. The fact is he basically was stupid enough to essentially leave a gas station with half a tank when he had a full tanks worth of distance to travel. The only way you would do this is if you want to get stuck. I don't care how scientific you are trying to be, you wouldn't risk being stuck out in the cold with a dead car unless you really wanted that to happen. Why we should take anything this man writes about cars seriously is beyond me.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#22
> Musk accuses Broder of thinking "the facts shouldn’t get in the way of a salacious story" (which is an odd choice of adjective for a car review)

The story was "Electric cars suck". Broder is well known for having anti-electric car opinions, so it's not surprising that he would want to write a negative review.

Argument 1: The length of the detour is not as important as the type of driving during that detour.

Argument 2: "But Broder never claims he turned down his heat at the 182 mile mark." - well, he does claim he turned it down and doesn't mention he had turned it up. People can lie by omission.

Argument 3: "But the section before he broke down it does look like he chugged along at a pretty low speed.", perhaps. But not at the 45 mph claimed in the article.

Argument 5: "No. His other chart shows the mile range dipped below zero, which would indicate the car could not move." The car has a small reserve. 0 charge would mean "charge the car right now".

Argument 5: "Broder also explains that he did not charge fully because of the time it took to charge. He wanted to show the real world experience of a real driver, who might not want to endure the hour and a half it takes to charge up, when only needing a certain amount of energy to get to point B." I hope any real driver would know that a distance of 60 miles would need enough charge for a 60 mile journey, and that giving 30 miles of charge would be a stupid thing to do. Just as if you needed to drive a distance needing 20 gallons you'd be stupid if you only filled with 10 gallons.

This article is, frankly, idiotic.

All it takes is one person to drive the same journey, but with proper charging, and to release the logs to disprove Broder's points.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#24
The "Norwich Charge" data point is all you need to understand what happened here. Notice how vague Broder is in his original account:

"After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a plate of eggs. But the owners let me wait there while the Model S drank its juice. Tesla’s experts said that pumping in a little energy would help restore the power lost overnight as a result of the cold weather, and after an hour they cleared me to resume the trip to Milford."

At every previous charge, he noted the exact mileage remaining when he headed out. Why not this time? Because the estimated range when he left that charging station was less than he needed to reach his destination and he knew damn well that that was the case.

http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/r...

(How he convinced the Tesla people to "clear" him at that point is a mystery that hasn't been followed up on by either party.)

Later he hand-waves past this by saying he was testing the superchargers, not normal chargers. But the fact is he knew he would run out of charge midway to his destination if he didn't charge the car longer. Instead, he decided to intentionally set up a situation where the car would be stranded.

Elon might have been better off concentrating on this point more, rather than some of the smaller inaccuracies. But the data is clear: the reporter was in full control of the situation and manufactured the failure himself.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#25

Article makes a few good points. There has been a lot of "Hurry for data! Boo journalists! Off with the oil shill Broder's head" talk here and elsewhere, but Tesla's data seems too far from an ironclad refutation of the article. The supposed circling would have lasted less than five minutes at 10-15 mph. It is a strictly subjective "he said, she said" situation about whether Tesla did tell Broder that he was good to…

Exactly! Musk is trying to get ahead if this story and he is using some well established tactics here, http://photojournalist.quora.com/Ironically-Musk-Tapped-The-...

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#26
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and your weird wishes for replication. Not gonna help. Plus, your framing is completely out of whack. You charge in there with your preconceived notions. As far as I can see, the only thing weird or unusual in the data is the speed. It’s not at 54 mph, it’s higher. That’s pretty inexcusable in itself. The rest seem like total non-issues to me. He never said he turned the temperature down at exactly mile so–and–so…

> You and your weird wishes for replication. The fact that you find replication weird, is weird. It would give me pause if I were in any empirically based project.

There is nothing wrong with replication, it’s just that it’s wholly unable to clear anything up in this case.

The main important points of contention aren’t even disagreed over here. Those you could figure out by replication.

It’s the interpretation of those results that’s the sticking point here.

Some details that cannot be replicated are also disagreed on (heat, circling in parking lot, …), but replication won’t help you find out which is the correct interpretation.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#27

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

When you say you are limping along at 45 mph you shouldn't be driving at over 50 mph.

> 45 mph or 52mph, it's the same crap to me.

Would that work with traffic police?

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#28
post #24

The "Norwich Charge" data point is all you need to understand what happened here. Notice how vague Broder is in his original account: "After making arrangements to recharge at the Norwich station, I located the proper adapter in the trunk, plugged in and walked to the only warm place nearby, Butch’s Luncheonette and Breakfast Club, an establishment (smoking allowed) where only members can buy a cup of coffee or a pla…

Earlier in the article, Broder claims that Tesla blamed the mileage inaccuracies on a computer glitch, and that some battery reconditioning would restore the range lost overnight. So it's not impossible that either he, or Tesla, (or both) believed the mileage readout to be inaccurately low, caused by a bug triggered by low temperature readings. I think the author implies that this was the situation, but it is indeed vague. Unless a transcript of the phone calls is released, this will probably remain a contentious point forever.

Re: Elon Musk's Data Doesn't Back Up His Claims of New York Times Fakery

#29

The problem I have with "he made it up": unless you have a computer keeping track of miles, speed and temperature, you are going to be "lying" about it. For example, I could easily say that I was riding at 67 mph but the computer point out that I actually went as high as 72, as low as 52 a lot of the time. Was I lying? Who the hell is going to remember or write about every speed change on a 500 mile trip? Was it a sc…

If you don't remember exact details, you shouldn't give exact details in your report.

He could easily have given round estimates, but he made the choice to appear more precise.

His choice, his error.

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