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VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

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Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#21

Post by Hupo »

nullc wrote: post #19

Testing with a single not very representative clip is a poor idea, See the comment on the github: https://gist.github.com/4645784#comment-756444

>not very representative clip

I chose the clip based on what Dark_Shikari (x264 developer) had to say about it[1]:

It shouldn't bias too heavily towards any one encoder like many of the other standard test clips will:

a. It's relatively high motion, so it won't bias heavily against encoders without B-frames or qpel (as, say, mobcal does).

b. It's not so high motion that it would cripple video formats that don't support motion vectors longer than 16 pixels (e.g. Theora).

c. It's not something that benefits an unreasonably large amount from some of x264's algorithms (which is why I picked this and not parkrun).

[1] http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154430

I could have done multiple test encodes, sure, but the problem in this case was that downloading several gigabytes of raw source material isn't exactly instant. And even if I tested with multiple clips, I doubt the conclusion would be that much different.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#22

Post by shortsightedsid »

Osiris wrote: post #2

Having done a lot of video encoding myself, I've found that H.264 offers the best quality, especially at lower bit rates. I really do hope that VP9 can offer the quality of H.265. VP8 just wasn't good enough to compete against H.264.

Video encoders have a number of tools. It really depends on what tools you have enabled.

The standard itself doesn't specify how an encoder behaves. That leaves a lot of room for innovation on encoders. End of the day, the qp/bitrate ratio you get is encoder implementation dependent and not sometime that's specific to the standard. This is the part where most of the patents exist.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#23

Post by nullc »

Hupo wrote: post #21
nullc wrote: post #19

Testing with a single not very representative clip is a poor idea, See the comment on the github: https://gist.github.com/4645784#comment-756444

>not very representative clip I chose the clip based on what Dark_Shikari (x264 developer) had to say about it[1]: It shouldn't bias too heavily towards any one encoder like many of the other standard test clips will: a. It's relatively high motion, so it won't bias heavily against encoders without B-frames or qpel (as, say, mobcal does). b. It's not so high motion that it would cripple video formats that don't suppo…

Because of texture this clip benefits enormously from 8x8 transforms (as well as substantially from an activity masking aware encoder). On an intra frame in prior testing Theora did enormously better than VP8 on this clip for these reasons. If your test was to compare an intraframe between vp8 / baseline h264 / and Theora, you would have concluded Theora was the best by a wide margin. But this would be an erroneous conclusion.

And sure, perhaps you'd get the same result on other clips. Over high-profile H264 the only obvious format feature that come to mind that could really let VP8 get ahead are the 'truemotion' intra-predictor and creative use of the synthetic reference frame (though I suppose the vp8 developers might have other suggestions) and I'd expect those features to only be big wins on a small number of clips so it wouldn't be hard to miss the cases where VP8 really shines over high profile h264.

But you (or I) could have said that without doing the test at all, and there would be 100% fewer clueless people going around claiming that something was proven here that wasn't. Your opinion (or mine) is a fine thing, but it's not proper to launder an opinion as fact by dressing it up in an inadequate test.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#24

Post by protomyth »

shmerl wrote: post #10
Osiris wrote: post #2

Having done a lot of video encoding myself, I've found that H.264 offers the best quality, especially at lower bit rates. I really do hope that VP9 can offer the quality of H.265. VP8 just wasn't good enough to compete against H.264.

No, the point is it is good enough , even if in some cases it can't be as good because it has to work around software patents. Theora indeed can't compete in comparison, but VP8 surely can.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#25

Post by shmerl »

protomyth wrote: post #24
shmerl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point is it is good enough , even if in some cases it can't be as good because it has to work around software patents. Theora indeed can't compete in comparison, but VP8 surely can.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

> I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

How exactly? There is no indication that Google wants to make VP9 patent encumbered, since their whole idea behind VP8 was to enable high quality open video codec for the Web and beyond. If VP9 will be their natural next step, it will be open as well. If Daala comes soon enough too - it will be another option.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#26

Post by cookiecaper »

ck2 wrote: post #3

Considering the sheer number of devices with h.264, it's like saying betamax is superior while everyone only has vhs.

Only if you limit your discussion to mobile platforms. Most recent computers should be able to run VP8 video without the end user taking notice (assuming a generic player like VLC is installed), even if they have to do software decoding.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#27

Post by gillianseed »

protomyth wrote: post #24
shmerl wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the point is it is good enough , even if in some cases it can't be as good because it has to work around software patents. Theora indeed can't compete in comparison, but VP8 surely can.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

Google releases VP8 and VP9 with a patent and royalty free licence, so a potential patent threat will hardly come from them.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#28

Post by taligent »

ck2 wrote: post #6
SG- wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand, Betamax had superior quality, but in this case this article shows that h264 has more detail at the same bit rate combined with much faster encoding.

Does your standalone device have vp8? All bluray devices can play h264 streams but almost never vp8. Of course as everything switches to android this will change completely by the end of the decade, but for streaming in 2013, h264 is the better investment. Once they move to h265 vs vp9 the point is moot but that won't be common for at least five years. The encoding requirements for those streams will also be signific…

> Of course as everything switches to android this will change completely by the end of the decade

That's hilarious.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#29

Post by taligent »

gillianseed wrote: post #27
protomyth wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how cable looks compared to over the air HDTV, the coming of 4k, and satellite channels even h.264 isn't good enough. VP8 won't be and h.265 is the industries answer. I would expect trouble with the adoption of VP9 given Google's moves with Mortorola's patents.

Google releases VP8 and VP9 with a patent and royalty free licence, so a potential patent threat will hardly come from them.

Exactly the patent threat will come from the MPEG-LA or the members directly.

Because if VP9 is indeed similar to H.265 then you I would imagine a patent is being infringed somewhere. And since Google doesn't provide patent indemnification you can guarantee that some big royalties will be demanded from users.

Re: VP8 vs H.264 – Which One is Better?

#30

Post by zanny »

shmerl wrote: post #18
Hupo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H.264 isn't exactly "closed" per se - the standard itself is freely available[1], which is why we have great free and open source encoders and decoders for it. What you mean by "closed" is most likely just "patent-encumbered", which it most certainly is and which affects anyone wanting to use it commercially (at the moment you can use it freely for non-commercial purposes on the internet, but this may or may not chan…

By closed I mean not available for free use and distribution, for example in open source projects which can't pay any royalties. May be saying free format would sound more clear, since you are right, closed is a bit ambiguous, as it can also mean a format without published specification which needs to be reverse engineered to be used. Also, I don't think that H.264 forbids only commercial use. Can you freely distribu…

The fine print of H264 says as a consumer you can implement the codec without paying a license fee for non commercial personal use. That does, however, mean all the free implementations like in FFMPEG are liable because since they are open sourced they are not restricted to consumer use.
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