Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#21

Post by aresant » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:16 AM UTC

A fun sci-fi read would be about a futuristic government that "subsidizes" an Industry for much-debated, but ultimately politically driven reasons.

Rather than simply making cash-handouts, however, the Government & the Industry conspire to hide these handouts by creating new by-products for sale to consumers.

The Industry grows and rejoices, extending its products into as far ranging lines as sweeteners, fuels, and plastics.

To drive adoption they interrupt the free market through price manipulation and straight forward mandate from their "Environmental" agency.

Despite overwhelming evidence that consumers are being harmed by these by-products - record obesity, less efficient engines, and environmental damage - the subsidies only grow.

I'd like to see how the protagonist would drive change as presently my best solution is to rage via comment board into the echo chamber.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#22

Post by pebb » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:20 AM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #18

dsr_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be successful if the company pays more in fines than it earned in profit.

If the US government is involved in the prosecution, we can pretty much guarantee that we will make it worth their while. It's usually something like "oh you made 500m profit from fraud? How about 50m fine, any bigger might make you go out of business, like you would have without committing fraud."

Plus, they admit no guilt like the banks!

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#23

Post by kunle » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:22 AM UTC

Seems like a classic case of the law of unintended consequences at work.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#24

Post by InclinedPlane » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:22 AM UTC

EwanToo wrote: post #5

To me this reads like pretty standard fraud, along the lines of carousel fraud[1] which was very common a few years ago. If nobody is arrested or punished for it, then that's more like weak enforcement than clever use of the system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_trader_fraud#Carousel_f...

The important bit here is that expiration failure "glitch", and the details thereof. If it's just a straight up glitch and the law called for the expiration of the RINs after one crossing then this is a pretty clear-cut case of fraud. If a bank error puts a million dollars in your account, or if a car falls off a shipping truck into your front yard, that doesn't make it yours. By the same token, a glitch in the expiration system doesn't make exploiting that glitch legal.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#25

Post by coopdog » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:26 AM UTC

As much as I dislike the idea of new government departments, it sounds like they do need some kind of 'evil' department who's only job is to think up ways to abuse proposed new laws and regulations before they go into effect.

Similar to how generals have the intelligence section of their staff put on only the enemy hat and poke holes in their plans.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#26

Post by tnorthcutt » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:26 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #19

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's blame the government for people abusing regulations. Except the regulations we like, of course. We'll call it "arbitrage" when we abuse regulations we don't like, and "fraud" when we abuse regulations we do like (like property).

I expect some level of proof that arbitrage is reducible to fraud in the average case. Do you have any?

That's not what he's saying.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#27

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:27 AM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #19

rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, let's blame the government for people abusing regulations. Except the regulations we like, of course. We'll call it "arbitrage" when we abuse regulations we don't like, and "fraud" when we abuse regulations we do like (like property).

I expect some level of proof that arbitrage is reducible to fraud in the average case. Do you have any?

Nothing about my statement requires arbitrage to be reducible to fraud in the average case. "Arbitrage" can be a euphemism for fraudulent activity even if most arbitrage is not fraudulent.

The heart of the matter is good faith. "Fraud" is a crime created to capture activity in bad faith with respect to the property regulation. The importation here might be legal, but there is a demonstrable lack of good faith that justifies calling it fraud.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#28

Post by lhnn » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:29 AM UTC

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #13

gsibble wrote: post #10

Hilarious. Sounds legal and I doubt they would have done it otherwise. Good example of why most regulation is ridiculous because it's generally easy to find and exploit loopholes.

> Sounds legal On the contrary, sounds a lot like a standard "carousel fraud" > and I doubt they would have done it otherwise. ... Which happens despite being illegal. > Good example of why most regulation is ridiculous Laws aren't perfect, lets try no laws!

The government is quick to enforce "spirit of the law" or "letter of the law" when it's most convenient for them.

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#29

Post by recursive » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:30 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #15

001sky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the article? The EPA was the one issuing credits, apparently against its own rules. That is arbitrage of something with zero cost and greater-than-zero value in the market, not fraud. There is no "protest" against this rule evident in the article, etc. Both the Canada Border Services Agency and the US EPA have launched investigations into the possibility of fraud, although the companies claim that the pr…

Fair enough. I went back and read the article more carefully. The EPA was issuing credits for importing biofuel. So the company decided to ship fuel out of the country and back in to make it look like they were importing fuel, and therefore earn the credits. Sorry, but that's fraud. There's nothing here that is wrong about the EPAs program or behavior. They want renewal energy to be imported, and are offering a credi…

In order to be fraud, doesn't there need to be some form of misrepresentation or deceit?

Re: Why did a Train Carrying Biofuel Cross the Border 24 Times and Never Unload?

#30

Post by tantalor » Thu, Jan 03, 2013, 12:31 AM UTC

vinhboy wrote: post #14

dsr_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be successful if the company pays more in fines than it earned in profit.

that never happens.

But it's not a real profit, i.e., they weren't selling anything.

The money (in the form of RINs) was stolen from the EPA. You better believe the government will be recouping it.