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Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

technologyreview.com

21–30 of 57 posts

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#21

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

In the UK, energy used in homes accounts for more than a quarter of all national energy use and carbon dioxide emissions. Space heating consumes the largest amount of energy for most households. An alternative to solar panels is simply better insulation for housing. This can dramatically cut energy consumption.

BTW, Germany has been a pioneer in this regard too as it developed the PassivHaus standard for energy efficiency in buildings. The standard is over a decade old and it's been demonstrated that existing or older housing stock can also be retrofitted to meet the standard (although it can be expensive).

But even without the rigour of the PassiveHaus standard, there are many other techniques to substantially improve the insulation of existing buildings so their energy costs shrink. To me, it seems sensible to think about reducing our energy consumption as well as finding alternative, cleaner (greener) technologies.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#22

I have never understood residential solar. Seems like a gimmick. Why would I want these panels on my roof? It seems like hosting a server in your basement. It is appealing in theory, but silly in practice. If I just hosted my panels at a site where other people hosted their solar panels, you could probably install it for less than $1.00 per watt.

What else is your roof doing during the day if it is not raining? In the hotter areas of the US, covering your roof in solar panels not only generates electricity, but reduces attic temps and the need for A/C.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#23
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SolarCity has some interesting options where they can install their systems for free and rent it out to you, on a per kwh or per month basis. http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-ppa.aspx http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx

I don't understand why more people haven't taken them up on this offer. If it really guarantees you cheaper power and you don't have to put any money in, what's the downside?

These are some of the reasons that discourage people I know:

* Having to make a decision

* Opportunity cost (doing this deal means not getting some other solar arrangement and means not getting next year's better technology)

* "To qualify for financing, you need to have excellent credit (a FICO score of 700 or greater)."

* Some of us don't like companies that keep basic information off the Web and require you to talk on the phone to a sales rep: "Availability of SolarPPA and SolarLease vary by location based on what your local utility company prefers." ... "Financing terms vary by location and are not available in all areas. To find out which plans are available in your area, request a free consultation."

* Not knowing people in-person who will vouch for the company's honesty and good service.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SolarCity has some interesting options where they can install their systems for free and rent it out to you, on a per kwh or per month basis. http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-ppa.aspx http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx

I don't understand why more people haven't taken them up on this offer. If it really guarantees you cheaper power and you don't have to put any money in, what's the downside?

[deleted]

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#25
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not, silly. There aren’t any tax breaks for solar installations in Germany. There are guaranteed prices energy companies have to pay for solar energy from small private installations. And besides, this is about the cost of the installation. You did read the article?

>There aren’t any tax breaks for solar installations in Germany. There are guaranteed prices energy companies have to pay for solar energy from small private installations. That's even better than a tax break. Who can turn down free money?

That’s not the point. The point is the ignorance on display here. If you don’t even know the basics of a policy you have no right to talk about it.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#26
One factor that does not seem to have been explored is financing costs. As I understand the situation in the US, residential solar is often financed by banks, and capital for this type is expensive right now, leading to high costs. Anyone in the industry know whether that could account for the cost discrepancy?

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#27
post #6

well its the tax breaks of course silly. In the UK the grants for solar used to guarantee around a 8% return - this is a tax break for the Upper middle classes who can spend $20k or so. This is a result of the silly panic over fukishima in Germany and the greens being brought off to keep Adrea Merkal in power.

Germany had a lot of solar a long time before Fukishima.

Germany's use of solar drove up prices of silicon in 2004.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell#Cost)

> The price of solar panels fell steadily for 40 years, until 2004 when high subsidies in Germany drastically increased demand there and greatly increased the price of purified silicon (which is used in computer chips as well as solar panels).

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#28
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why more people haven't taken them up on this offer. If it really guarantees you cheaper power and you don't have to put any money in, what's the downside?

[deleted]

I have a solar city PPA.

I suspect what you see on their website is just to grab customers. They don't try to snow anyone, at least IME. They will give you sheets that show exactly what they estimate and are willing to guarantee a year, and show exactly how all the numbers are derived.

5 of my friends (all engineers, actually) are doing PPA's as well.

A few things:

1. Sadly, a lot of folks try to compare generation charges vs what solar city is asking you to pay.

For example, in my area, Pepco's generation charge is 8.9 cents, and my PPA with solar city is 6.5 cents. Not so great, right?

However, when you include pepco's distribution charges, various tariffs and taxes that i don't have to pay solar city, etc, the actual pepco cost is closer to 14 cents a kwh (i'm going by my actual power usage divided by actual utility bill cost).

I am probably a weird case, but i have saved plenty this year. Since i'm on a PPA, as long as the PPA rate stays below pepco's rate, i will always save money.

2. The PPA numbers they guaranteed me vs actual generation amount is pretty spot on. They are very good at calculating the actual power generation of the panels. They do not overpromise and underdeliver (and as i'll get to, they guarantee this by contract). For this year, I was guaranteed 10400kwh of power at 6.5 cents, and so far, i've generated ~10320kwh with 4 days left.

For example, I know they calculate historical cloud coverage using real data (google earth, et al)

The PPA contracts have two sets of performance guarantees: Under and over:

First, for every kwh they guarantee but do not deliver, you get exactly the right amount of money back. IE i was promised 10400kwh this year, and paid 6.5 cents per kwh for it. If i do not generate that much, they pay me exactly 10400-actual generation * 6.5 cents. So you always at least get your money back (though yes, this is effectively giving them a loan). In some PPA's they do the refund price is greater than the actual price, so that there are teeth to them not meeting the guarantee.

The other underperformance guarantee is that if they are under performing by more than 10%, they are required to do whatever is necessary to ensure this does not happen the next year, or they are in breach of contract (and there are plenty of penalties on their side for this). I know of cases where they've installed tracking systems, etc, in order to make this happen.

They also have overperformance guarantees. If my system overgenerates (which for me, is profitable, as i'll get to), I pay 6.5 cents per kwh, up to 20% of the yearly number guarantee. Over 20%, I don't pay them unless i am able to sell the power myself.

So you do have upper/lower bounds on the numbers, set by contract, though historically solar city installs are within a very small percentage of the guaranteed numbers

3. At least for me, overgeneration is profitable. Maryland is a net energy state, and pepco is required to pay me the residential generation rate. It comes in the form of net energy credits that carry over month to month, and any remaining excess is paid out in real money at the end of each year.

So if i were to generate 100000 kwh on my panels (let's assume this is under the 20% number i gave above), but only use 10000kwh a year, i would owe solar city 90000kwh6.5 cents. Pepco would then be required to pay me 90000kwh8.9 cents.

So you can actually make money on the deal if solar city messed up the numbers.

4. Because it's a PPA, i am not responsible for anything but giving them access to my roof. They are also willing to guarantee all roof penetrations, and any repairs needed because the panels are there. If the panels explode, break, etc it isn't my problem. Any defects/failures that are in the panels does not suspend their performance guarantee.

Note that I am also a prepay PPA, so my PPA rate never increases. If you can float the money, and will stay in the house for a long time, you should always be able to make your money back, unless your local utility suddenly decides to start charging people a lot less.

The real case it doesn't make sense is if you are going to need to break the lease.

Rereading the above, I realize it sounds a bit like a commercial, but it's really not. Other than the lease length issue, it's often a pretty good deal. The funny thing is, i'm moving, so I will end up transferring the PPA when I sell the house. Even though i prepaid, it looks like i'll still make the money back that I spent in increased home value. (People value homes in funny ways)

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#29
post #5

One of the reasons is, as the article states, that US companies have to recover higher costs to acquire customers. But it doesn't say why. The reason is because grid power is more expensive in Germany: $0.30/kWh compared to $0.10/kWh on average in the US. Therefore potential customers are easier to convince to use solar in Germany.

And, on the flip side, Germany has massive tax subsidies for solar power. It's a lot easier to convince someone to get solar panels installed on their roof if you can show them a tax benefit for doing so. On a broader note, I don't get why we think it's a good thing for Germany to have this much solar energy. Unlike, say, Spain, the German climate is not especially well suited to solar power. It's too far north, as a…

The notion that Germany is bad for solar is wrong.

If you check the insolation maps you will find that southern Germany is surprisingly sunny. Their cooler temperatures also help with efficiency.

Re: Why Solar Installations Cost More in the U.S. than in Germany

#30
post #10
post #6

well its the tax breaks of course silly. In the UK the grants for solar used to guarantee around a 8% return - this is a tax break for the Upper middle classes who can spend $20k or so. This is a result of the silly panic over fukishima in Germany and the greens being brought off to keep Adrea Merkal in power.

No it’s not, silly. There aren’t any tax breaks for solar installations in Germany. There are guaranteed prices energy companies have to pay for solar energy from small private installations. And besides, this is about the cost of the installation. You did read the article?

There's a tax break right in the article:

"They pay more in sales tax (German installers are exempt)."

But you're right, that the largest subsidy is not paid out of tax money, but through a (very large [0]) mandated surcharge on private utility bills. There's little practical difference. It's functionally equivalent to a tax subsidy funded by a tax on electricity.

[0] http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/25/eu-oettinger-idUSL...

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