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US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

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Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#21
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point.

Its my stated disagreement with the following: >I think it makes sense to say training on material you legally acquired is fair use. First an aside, there's no law against accessing copyrighted material. OpenAI is certainly welcome to read the New York Times. I can legally buy dvds but the legality of redistributing rips is only considered should I redistribute them. One of the considerations of "fair use" might be t…

My position is it's totally coherent to say that "training" is analogous to "reading" and inference is not analogous to "redistributing rips" and that it's a reasonable position for fair use law to operate that way. I think this benefits society.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#22
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP adopted capitalism too. There's no sense in worrying how closely the university aligns real policy with various theoretical economic ideals. If we allow copyright law to directly inhibit technological advancement then we defeat the very purpose of copyright law. That said, it need not inhibit if they just pay for using it. Hopefully they will sue for reasonable compensation, noting that they have such a privi…

Copyright law can be misused and can inhibit some advancement, but the fact that “certain groups” or “certain companies” can just ignore laws with no ramifications is something else. If it’s probably life-saving or a pipeline of a dream (see Elon musk always promising FSD), then they should pay or prove the end result.

I agree. You can be right (in my opinion), and stupidly file a bad case (in my opinion), simultaneously.

You can be right, and dead at the same time.

Just because I think they filed stupid doesn't imply that I think they are wrong.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP adopted capitalism too. There's no sense in worrying how closely the university aligns real policy with various theoretical economic ideals. If we allow copyright law to directly inhibit technological advancement then we defeat the very purpose of copyright law. That said, it need not inhibit if they just pay for using it. Hopefully they will sue for reasonable compensation, noting that they have such a privi…

Yes, just give me my food ration comrade. It is all I need to keep making art for the glory of The Party and it's Supreme Leader. Everything I do I do for the glory of AI. AI is progress!

Personally I worry that AI is an existential threat that is totally out of anyone's control by now.

Not sure if you read my comment in a different light or not, but I do get the feeling you misunderstood my meaning.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright law can be misused and can inhibit some advancement, but the fact that “certain groups” or “certain companies” can just ignore laws with no ramifications is something else. If it’s probably life-saving or a pipeline of a dream (see Elon musk always promising FSD), then they should pay or prove the end result.

I agree. You can be right (in my opinion), and stupidly file a bad case (in my opinion), simultaneously. You can be right, and dead at the same time. Just because I think they filed stupid doesn't imply that I think they are wrong.

…you’re saying the folks who tried suing OpenAI for accumulating their data filed a stupid copyright? And dead?

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#25

If they're going to treat copyright works like a public good, then the product they produce should also be a public good to prevent the "free-rider" problem. --- The free rider problem is also a form of market failure... The production of public goods results in positive externalities which are not remunerated. If private organizations do not reap all the benefits of a public good which they have produced, their ince…

To some extent, and obviously grossly over-simplified here, copyright is the act of taking some already public good and putting private rights on it. My reading of the amicus is that the government is arguing that particular rights that NY Times are asserting that they have are not ones that promote the aims of the original reasons for copyright to exist and so aren't necessarily ones which need to govern the behavior of any other people (in this case OpenAI, but this likely applies to any LLM training no matter the size).

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, just give me my food ration comrade. It is all I need to keep making art for the glory of The Party and it's Supreme Leader. Everything I do I do for the glory of AI. AI is progress!

Personally I worry that AI is an existential threat that is totally out of anyone's control by now. Not sure if you read my comment in a different light or not, but I do get the feeling you misunderstood my meaning.

I don't care what you worry about. What's mine is mine. You can't give it away for me and then say, "as long as they give you a few coins as a token of their appreciation."

Would you be happy if I sold your house for $10,000, so long as I give you half the proceeds? Or would you, I dunno, call the police.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. You can be right (in my opinion), and stupidly file a bad case (in my opinion), simultaneously. You can be right, and dead at the same time. Just because I think they filed stupid doesn't imply that I think they are wrong.

…you’re saying the folks who tried suing OpenAI for accumulating their data filed a stupid copyright? And dead?

Yup. They need to start with the fact that competing nations have access to it no matter what anyone says or does.

Negotiate from there.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I worry that AI is an existential threat that is totally out of anyone's control by now. Not sure if you read my comment in a different light or not, but I do get the feeling you misunderstood my meaning.

I don't care what you worry about. What's mine is mine. You can't give it away for me and then say, "as long as they give you a few coins as a token of their appreciation." Would you be happy if I sold your house for $10,000, so long as I give you half the proceeds? Or would you, I dunno, call the police.

I don't think your analogy is representative of reality.

If you copy what my house looks like, no, I won't call the police.

Especially if you copy it for the purpose of empowering the police (govt) to protect my actual house.

That's a much more accurate analogy.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care what you worry about. What's mine is mine. You can't give it away for me and then say, "as long as they give you a few coins as a token of their appreciation." Would you be happy if I sold your house for $10,000, so long as I give you half the proceeds? Or would you, I dunno, call the police.

I don't think your analogy is representative of reality. If you copy what my house looks like, no, I won't call the police. Especially if you copy it for the purpose of empowering the police (govt) to protect my actual house. That's a much more accurate analogy.

Mmm, yes. No architects, only police.

Re: US gov sides with OpenAI on issue of training LLMs on copyrighted material

#30
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its my stated disagreement with the following: >I think it makes sense to say training on material you legally acquired is fair use. First an aside, there's no law against accessing copyrighted material. OpenAI is certainly welcome to read the New York Times. I can legally buy dvds but the legality of redistributing rips is only considered should I redistribute them. One of the considerations of "fair use" might be t…

My position is it's totally coherent to say that "training" is analogous to "reading" and inference is not analogous to "redistributing rips" and that it's a reasonable position for fair use law to operate that way. I think this benefits society.

>My position is it's totally coherent to say that "training" is analogous to "reading"

yeah I joke about chatting up my ai gf but there's not going to be any sex lol

>and inference is not analogous to "redistributing rips"

I think you made both points previously so duly noted, your explanations are lacking tho.

>and that it's a reasonable position for fair use law to operate that way.

I think you said this too in a way. Which is interesting in a coincidental sort of way, I like working with loops. But what I do when producing a loop based techno whatever is I like to progress it somehow. The same thing over and over well I guess thats a thing too which is interesting, if you downloaded a heavily looped song, you can compress it by repeating one bar programmatically, granted its pretty lossy. its sort of how much information per measure of time, I like to call it "rpms", like for instance the first measure has high rpm, but if you loop it, each subsequent measure "loses rpms" so to speak. This doesn't take into consideration "incoherent noise" obviously, I like to take it as one measure amongst many.

Your text compresses nicely with suprisingly little loss of information!

>I think this benefits society.

Heh trump thinks energy can be created from nothing.

I appreciate the chat, but while I get the point you're making, I can also appreciate you're not interested in mine which is fair. I post as sort of a hobby, and I think I've sort of thrashed out a blog post maybe here, so thats appreciated.

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