Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking • Hacker News Board

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#21

Post by stfu » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:16 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #2

Author asks: "I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem. How does it compare to other issues such as preventable diseases, regular crime, terrorism?" But is that the best comparison? What about comparing it to frequency and impact in other countries? When we want to evaluate the effectiveness of a treatment, we don't measure efficacy against the treatment to a completely different diseas…

Author is basically saying, anything that is statistically small, does not deserve attention.

No, he is not. He is saying, anything that is statistically small, and the elimination thereof would substantially restrain the rights and freedom of others, should be questioned.

No matter how you are going to argue, there is at least "some" purpose for guns - for self protection, etc. If the discussion were really about saving lifes, it makes no sense why not putting a ban on smoking, something that clearly has no purpose at all.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#22

Post by rictic » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:18 PM UTC

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#23

Post by jack-r-abbit » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

engtech wrote: post #14

Infographic on gun ownership around the world that was published by a Canadian newspaper after a public shooting at a mall. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-aroun... note that the black circle is not scaled by the population of the country so it isn't visually as useful as it could be. Interesting take aways: * 88.9 guns per 100 U.S. citizens * 45.7 guns per 100 swedish citizens (next highest co…

Since it is hard to compare one country to another since there is a long history of the attitudes and mentality of each's citizens that makes them different. One statistic that is rarely seen is "# of guns per 100 gun owners" to go along with that. Having 2x the number of guns per 100 citizens is a little less significant if the average US gun owner has 2 guns. Meaning, the number of people that are armed is the same.

Let's say you are in a room with 100 people and you know that 88 guns are in there. Would you feel better if you knew that 88 different people each had 1 gun or that 44 people each had 2 guns?

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#24

Post by justincormack » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:20 PM UTC

bdunbar wrote: post #20

ollysb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

> We don't allow people on the roads without a licence I'm not convinced by this argument. Firearms are not used in public spaces, but in private land, or on club-owned property.

Firearms are never used in public? Ever?

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#25

Post by csense » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:20 PM UTC

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

> tasers

A melee weapon versus a deadly ranged weapon is going to be a poor matchup.

> guns with rubber bullets

If you're the good guy who's doing the most damage, but it's non-lethal, non-debilitating damage, you'd better be prepared to draw aggro.

My guess is that only a teacher with a gun would have had a decent chance of ending the massacre early.

My understanding of tactics is largely based on video games. Anyone with any training/experience in real-life tactics is welcome to comment on my comment.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#26

Post by tthomas48 » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

rictic wrote: post #22

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

I concur. This is one of those cases where gut reaction proves to be a really bad idea after just a couple minutes of introspection.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#27

Post by jbellis » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:21 PM UTC

engtech wrote: post #14

Infographic on gun ownership around the world that was published by a Canadian newspaper after a public shooting at a mall. http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/28/guns-ownership-aroun... note that the black circle is not scaled by the population of the country so it isn't visually as useful as it could be. Interesting take aways: * 88.9 guns per 100 U.S. citizens * 45.7 guns per 100 swedish citizens (next highest co…

True, but a common argument from gun owners is that if you're feeling homicidal, you'll find a way to commit murder with or without a gun.

Looking at all homicides vs gun ownership seems to bear that out. In fact, there appears to be a negative correlation with gun ownership: http://diegobasch.com/homicides-vs-gun-ownership

(Can we start abbreviating Correlation Is Not Causation as CINC now? In any case, if you're going to argue that more guns = more murders, at the very least you're going to have to concede that other factors are much, much more important.)

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#28

Post by pc86 » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

ollysb wrote: post #12

mc32 wrote: post #2

Author asks: "I would start by measuring the magnitude of mass shootings as a problem. How does it compare to other issues such as preventable diseases, regular crime, terrorism?" But is that the best comparison? What about comparing it to frequency and impact in other countries? When we want to evaluate the effectiveness of a treatment, we don't measure efficacy against the treatment to a completely different diseas…

I visited Phoenix a couple of weeks ago and was shown a gun collection owned by a previous member of the army. I was shown a pistol collection, then rifles, then semi-automatics. Really a quite staggering amount of hardware. When I asked what license was required to own this type of equipment he replied none. Without making a judgement on whether or not civilians should be allowed to own this type of equipment in the…

Something gun control advocates seem to forget is that gun ownership is a Constitutional right for Americans. You cannot compare it to driving a car, or buying a television, or buying something from Amazon. If you're going to compare to something else for the purposes of limiting and regulating it, you need to compare to voting, assembling, practicing your faith or some other Constitutional right.

When you are required to get a license to cast your ballot or attend your church, then you can make the argument for getting a license to purchase a firearm.

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#29

Post by nollidge » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Hey quick question: how many people died in those knife attacks?

Re: Mass Shootings, Political Correctness, and Magical Thinking

#30

Post by csense » Mon, Dec 17, 2012, 9:23 PM UTC

rictic wrote: post #22

Todd wrote: post #16

I'm not looking forward to the coming months. It's going to be a political circus, with each side clamoring to push or protect their already strongly held beliefs and positions. I really wish we would have a meaningful debate over the best tools and strategies for protecting people in large groups in public places. Because of the delay of so-called first responders, it is really left to the people who are there to ta…

Putting weapons in the hands of teachers and other school officials makes intuitive sense, however the case where it will need to be used is very rare, yet to be useful the weapons will need to be readily available at all times. As a result, it's plausible that the total magnitude of injury would be higher due to accident, misuse, etc.

There are 20+ curious kids around; the teacher can't always watch everyone all the time.

The classroom presents special challenges not present in other situations when it comes to arming civilians.