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How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

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Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#21

Post by dzonga »

some of these media outlets manipulate public opinion.

majority of the public can't differentiate between commerce & capitalism. nor socialism vs 'free markets'.

the non-gullible people know it's not just about this vs that - but ultimately who controls what. ideally you want a system where no individual player or a few players can tip the system.

the Chinese system is probably the closest to that - but then the CCP exists :( . a large player that can tip the scales. but for the rest of the businesses - it's dog eat dog - the better ones that survive are suited to serve the population while aligned to the goals of the population for a good part.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#22

Post by timacles »

inigyou wrote: post #20
nostrademons wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes me wonder how many of the complaints about capitalism are really about corruption , and if people would have a more favorable view of it if we didn't have this system of interlocking directorships, revolving public/private appointments, regulatory capture, and backroom handshakes between government and corporations that seems to shut many Americans out of the capitalist wealth-creation engine.

Could it be that capitalism implies or causes corruption?

I’m thinking any human made system implies corruption

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#23

Post by inigyou »

krapp wrote: post #18
Telaneo wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if does a whole lot of stuff, then it's communism.

If it does stuff for poor people it's communism. If it does stuff for rich people it's capitalism.

Premier example: enforcement of abstract property rights. This is Big Government™ but since most holders of abstract property rights are rich people, it's capitalism.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#24

Post by vjvjvjvjghv »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #3
pizzaiolo wrote: post #2

The caveat for anyone outside of the United States is that what they call "socialism" is really just capitalism with a welfare state.

Which the US has anyway, albeit in a patchier form than other countries, and with welfare handed out more to corporations and "sponsors" than individuals.

The US has the same attributes that most European countries have. Just to a different degree. Socialized healthcare (for some), welfare, free markets (with restrictions), the state heavily involved in steering the economy . It’s all the same just with emphasis on different aspects. The US would be way better off if they accepted that fact and didn’t tell themselves that they are so different from these socialist/communist countries.

A lot of the inefficiencies in areas like health care comes from the fact that the US does things that they don’t really want to accept that they are doing them.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#25

Post by inigyou »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #16
Avicebron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. We could do - have done - much worse than implementing some good sense social safety net measures. Especially as people advocate for AI and using it to replace/disempower employees.

> People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. That's irrelevant to the point. The 1980s did settle the capitalism vs. socialism debate. The USSR and, perhaps more consequentially, China effectively abandonned socialism because it failed and acknowledged that capitalism, free enterprise, and the free market wa…

The USSR had nothing to do with socialism (it was a feudal dictatorship) and it's debatable whether China is now capitalist.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#26

Post by lotsofpulp »

DamonHD wrote: post #15
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which the US has anyway, albeit in a patchier form than other countries, and with welfare handed out more to corporations and "sponsors" than individuals.

I don't see how a shared currency (between poor and rich states, with the subsidy flows that implies), a national air-traffic control system and the interstates, amongst many other features, are not "socialism".

The majority of federal government spending is a wealth transfer to old and poor people:

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...

That’s also an easy sign of socialism. Just not all of society benefits. Not to mention the state and local level stuff via Medicaid and property tax subsidies for old people, too.

And then there’s the implicit monetary policy of putting asset owners ahead of income earners by debasing the currency.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#27

Post by tw04 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #16
Avicebron wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. We could do - have done - much worse than implementing some good sense social safety net measures. Especially as people advocate for AI and using it to replace/disempower employees.

> People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. That's irrelevant to the point. The 1980s did settle the capitalism vs. socialism debate. The USSR and, perhaps more consequentially, China effectively abandonned socialism because it failed and acknowledged that capitalism, free enterprise, and the free market wa…

China doubled down, what on earth are you talking about? Every major corporation in China has a party member in a position of power to direct what the company does. And many of them have state ownership.

https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/reassessing-role...

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/arc-of-the-chinese-...

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#28

Post by miyoji »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #4

The capitalism vs socialism debate was settled in the 1980s, and so was the value of free enterprise. It is odd that the debate should keep being brought up... However, the terms should also be clearly defined in such poll because indeed the average person may have their own understanding, not least in the US. Judging by the comments even people on HN have no understanding of "socialism" and are trying to shoehorn an…

The 1980s was almost 50 years ago, and history continues to move.

50 years before the 1980s, during the Great Depression, the narrative was the opposite. The Soviet Union was invincible with a growing economy while every capitalist country on earth had been plunged into a devastating depression. Adopting social programs was the only way capitalism survived that decade at all.

In the 1930s, "socialism" won. In the 1980s, "capitalism" won. Scare quotes because neither was really the thing. Something else is going to win in the 2030s. The story is never over, despite what Francis Fukuyama would have you believe.

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#29

Post by [deleted] »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #4

The capitalism vs socialism debate was settled in the 1980s, and so was the value of free enterprise. It is odd that the debate should keep being brought up... However, the terms should also be clearly defined in such poll because indeed the average person may have their own understanding, not least in the US. Judging by the comments even people on HN have no understanding of "socialism" and are trying to shoehorn an…

[deleted]

Re: How Americans view capitalism, socialism and free enterprise

#30

Post by inigyou »

tw04 wrote: post #27
mytailorisrich wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People really need to give up the cold war, the failures of "end of history" thinking are directly related to all of the economic problems we have today. That's irrelevant to the point. The 1980s did settle the capitalism vs. socialism debate. The USSR and, perhaps more consequentially, China effectively abandonned socialism because it failed and acknowledged that capitalism, free enterprise, and the free market wa…

China doubled down, what on earth are you talking about? Every major corporation in China has a party member in a position of power to direct what the company does. And many of them have state ownership. https://sccei.fsi.stanford.edu/china-briefs/reassessing-role... https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/arc-of-the-chinese-...

Which isn't what any socialist would call socialism. But it is what many capitalists would call socialism.
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