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Web Discussions: Flat by Design

codinghorror.com

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Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#21

Post by pseut »

Since HN is explicitly designed to deter casual visitors [1], it might not be the best example to cite for poor comment design. Threaded's not great, but completely flat comments scale really poorly -- I can't imagine scanning a page with ~100 unthreaded comments, but I do that all the time at HN. A lot of the points seem like they could be improved a lot with a little javascript (ie, nuking unproductive threads), but, as the quotation below indicates, those changes probably aren't going to be made here.

[1]: http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html (4 paragraphs from the end, "But a site aiming at a particular subset of users has to attract just those—and just as importantly, repel everyone else. I've made a conscious effort to do this on HN. The graphic design is as plain as possible, and the site rules discourage dramatic link titles. The goal is that the only thing to interest someone arriving at HN for the first time should be the ideas expressed there."

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#23

Post by purplelobster »

I remember what it used to be like on random forums across the internet, and it wasn't pretty. The fact that discussions on reddit can still be easy enough to follow in spite of the tens of millions of visitors, and thousands of comments speaks more for how good the system actually is. Living before threaded comments like HN and reddit was like living in the stone age. Every system has it's flaws of course, as mentioned in the article.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#25

Post by asfdfdasfafdsss »

I agree that I don't like trees, but in HN just go to your user in the upper-right, and click on comments. Problem solved! Still a tree, but no more clutter.

Looking at flat comments for an involved discussion is sometimes confusing because you have to scroll around even more to see who is replying to what.

Maybe PG would provide an option in user config to view comments in a list rather than a tree if we asked.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#26

Post by petercooper »

I've always found unthreaded/single threaded conversations to be better when you want the discussion to remain civil and focused. For example, on MetaFilter or Edward Tufte's board.

I wish/hope someone puts some effort into studying the difference one day though because it might just be confirmation bias on my part.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#27

Post by petercooper »

Trezoid wrote: post #6

The only time I've ever seen flat comments work is when there is essentially no discussion (stack overflow) or where there is an obvious mechanism to indicate (and link too, ideally) the comment you're replying to. Threaded comments allow for more in-depth discussion, while making it obvious where the current thread finishes, so that skimming through is possible. Adding thread collapsing, or have threads auto-collaps…

Single threaded conversation has worked superbly on MetaFilter for over 10 years: http://www.metafilter.com/ (ditto Edward Tufte's board - though he uses a very heavy level of moderation to maintain quality)

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#28

Post by rcfox »

akkartik wrote: post #22

Incidentally, here's an alternative UI for HN that lets each comment stand on its own: http://hackerstream.com . It's a hobby project I built with a friend.

Hey, that's pretty neat! Unfortunately, I accidentally logged in with an empty email address field and it seems like I'm logged in as everyone, with no way to log out. Or something... The "your stream" page takes like 30 seconds to load after that.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#29

Post by jrajav »

elithrar wrote: post #15
codinghorror wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of categories: I was browsing many pages deep in HN a few hours ago and I noticed a ton of "Ask HN:" topics buried on pages 6-10. That kind of implies those should be different category area on the site, rather than being mixed in with the regular "here's a link, discuss the content on that link", perhaps? To me, there seems to be a very broad divide between "here is a link to an article, discuss", and "here…

> I have almost 500 HN "rep" and I still can't find any way to downvote. Is this documented anywhere? At Stack Exchange downvotes require 125 rep to cast, and cost you 1 point of rep for each answer downvote. (Question downvotes are free, but still require 125 rep to cast..) This is all listed in the FAQ. The min. requirement to downvote, I'm told, moves upward ever so slightly. I think I managed it just past 500, bu…

> The min. requirement to downvote, I'm told, moves upward ever so slightly.

That is what is told, but I think it goes upwards in increments. I recall clearly that I first saw the down arrows right at 500.

Re: Web Discussions: Flat by Design

#30

Post by codinghorror »

barrkel wrote: post #18
saurik wrote: post #2

I very often will find a post on HN where the conversation forked in numerous unrelated directions: one thread taking about the politics, one talking about the economics, one talking about the font used on the website, and another angry that the post got enough upvotes to be on the front page in the first place. I consider it of immense value that I can skip most of the content I am not interested, and concentrate on…

If I could add anything to HN, it would be branch collapsing. And of course I can do that indirectly, via a bookmarklet of Greasemonkey. Branch collapsing makes most of the navigation you describe easier.

It definitely should be here, otherwise you have the "50 reply tangent on politics that I can't avoid reading to get to anything else" problem.

It still leaves the "I have to do a bunch of work beyond simply scrolling down to read this discussion" problem. I don't like solutions that put excessive burden on the largest audience of anonymous readers. Write once, read many, and all that.

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