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Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

quantamagazine.org

21–30 of 268 posts

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#21
post #7

I'll admit that I find this discussion a bit navel-gazy. It has become a question of semantics not a question of actual functionality. The question has become "what do we mean when we use the word 'reasoning'" which is uninteresting. Dijkstra said[1] "... the question whether computers can think. The question is just as relevant and just as meaningful as the question whether submarines can swim." I don't see a clear…

I think the question and definition game is interesting only inasmuch as it helps us understand ourselves (what actually explains some of the mysterious properties of our perceived consciousness) or helps guide us towards improving performance and reliability of AI models.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#22
post #16

AI simulates reasoning by lighting up the vector space (or concept space) weighted around a token so they it understands all adjacent words or concepts in that space. This is a brillaint way to simulate reasoning, but its likely not how we reason ... simply how we store reasoning in writing. Its useful if you know how to use it, its dangerous if you think its more than that. But tl;dr it can (since its uncompressing…

Can you tell me your reasons for suspecting this likely isn't how we reason, or even a good analogy?

Its likely part of how we reason, but quite obviously its not the specific mechanics exactly.

First, we reason every millisecond on an ongoing basis which then can alter slightly or greatly with enviromental feedback. LLMs are turn based and token by token. Second its pretty unlikely that the token is the base element of our cognition, we created language far after we could do basic reasoning (advanced reasoning ala the greeks thats more debatable).

Theres a ton of research on the differences here, but I think its akin to this: we reason instinctually at an extremely high order level with super undefined "grains or vectors" that point to a wide variety of "objects or concepts or feature spaces". LLMs reason on one thing, token weights.

Sort of like the difference between pixels and reality. Pixels can represent reality, but they certainly are very very very flat and low resolution renderer of them, not reality itself. Even a 4K moving image is a flat redition of reality at best with only a tiny sample of the true experience. Media theory here can take over on the differences and the effects on humanity when they mistake one for the other.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#23
post #7

I'll admit that I find this discussion a bit navel-gazy. It has become a question of semantics not a question of actual functionality. The question has become "what do we mean when we use the word 'reasoning'" which is uninteresting. Dijkstra said[1] "... the question whether computers can think. The question is just as relevant and just as meaningful as the question whether submarines can swim." I don't see a clear…

Philosophical thinking about the nature of things is actually pretty enjoyable for some of us and probably a good thing to have in society

The answers to these questions probably do start to inform how we should treat these AI machines as a society too.

For instance, legally, should AI have human rights? Well, we have to try and understand how much of an independent entity AIs are, how "conscious" they are, before we can make a good decision about that.

Which might seem navel-gazey but it's probably important to talk about

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#25
post #4

[flagged]

No. In fact the opposite.

I’m happy that people are willing to question things in the face of unbridled optimism. Your comment dismissing the people working on actually figuring out what the models are doing as “not-doers” included.

Some are picturing themselves as intelligent for their quick adoption and rushing ahead, others are picturing them as toddlers running into the street before looking both ways.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#27
An intuitive explanation for why reasoning tokens help is to remember that LLMs are just mathmatical functions f() that take in an input sequence x and produces the next token f(x). Without reasoning tokens, you require the function f() to immediately take you from x to the start of an output sequence that is a correct answer. With reasoning tokens, this is much relaxed, allowing for many repeated applications of f() to gradually steer you from the input sequence to the start of the correct output sequence.

It seems intuitive that continuing a correct output sequence is easier than the "discontinuity" of jumping from the input prompt to the output sequence.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#28
This article seems to mix together two different points:

1) LLM's written CoT might not always be faithful to the model's real reasoning process (true and important)

2) The "stochastic parrot" hypothesis, which the article reintroduces as "approximate retrieval" - ie, LLMs don't "really reason" at all, they just memorize a lossy encoding of their training data. This obviously raises the question of how LLMs can now routinely solve open mathematical problems, with no solutions in the training data by definition. The article handwaves this with:

"The model doesn’t have to learn or reliably apply a general reasoning process, Kambhampati said; it just has to absorb enough examples of what the steps look like to predictively mimic them on its way to “stitching together” a plausible result that can then be verified."

The problem is that "mimicking" training data to arrive at a "plausible" result gets you an incorrect-but-plausible-sounding "proof" of the Jacobian conjecture, which was famous for humans writing plausible-looking "proofs" that had subtle flaws. You can't disprove the conjecture through sheer luck (search space too large) or "approximate retrieval" (the only thing you'd retrieve are fake "proofs"; far more human effort went into proof than disproof) or by writing something "plausible" that just happens to be correct (Jacobian was famous for "plausible" but wrong); the model must be carrying out mathematical reasoning somehow, by any sane definition of the word, even if it isn't fully reflected in CoT. The article doesn't address this.

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#29
post #8
post #4

[flagged]

I am glad for you at an individual level, but isn't part of this about understanding aggregate effects? Neither you nor anyone can really know those without talking it out with people, to understand how all corners of the human experience are seeing things play out If I were to just care if it's working out for me, that's perhaps like a farmer who's got a lot of dry good in storage being like "I'm all good" while not…

I find your comment extremely arrogant and condescending. Society will adapt and they don't need people gatekeeping AI or LLMs with all sorts of prophecies and dooming.

Why should I feel bad about working 3 remote jobs with the help of AI ?

Re: Is AI reasoning right for the wrong reasons?

#30

AI simulates reasoning by lighting up the vector space (or concept space) weighted around a token so they it understands all adjacent words or concepts in that space. This is a brillaint way to simulate reasoning, but its likely not how we reason ... simply how we store reasoning in writing. Its useful if you know how to use it, its dangerous if you think its more than that. But tl;dr it can (since its uncompressing…

I'm not convinced—and certainly don't find it obvious—that this couldn't ultimately also be how we reason as humans.

It's clear that there's an enormous amount of leverage built into language-as-practiced that one can use to engage in a broad spectrum of reasoning, from the extremely fallible off-the-cuff conclusion to the deeply-considered and rigorous proof. How do we know this leverage is built into language-as-practiced? Because LLMs can do a broad swath of it.

But how do we know we're not doing something similar?

I don't think we can assume that we're not simply by observing that we're not digital and we don't use matrix multiplication. Why immediately dismiss the possibility that there might be a similar, but biomechanical, computation at play in our heads that plays in the same space of vectors?

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