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WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

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Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#21

Post by smacktoward »

NathanKP wrote: post #8
diminish wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

weird how I feel in reverse. pseudo languages in templates and restrictive new template syatems annoy me in reverse. I prefer general languages for templating.

The very restrictive nature of a template pseudo language is one of its beneficial attributes. If, for example, you use PHP to create your templates then the very power and flexibility of PHP allows you to make a "quick fix" for a model issue in the template, or a function call from the template, and next thing you know your template is no longer just a view, but instead a messy hodgepodge of code along the lines of…

Just sandboxing what changes themes can make to the behavior of the system would be a win. As far as WordPress is concerned today, there's "themes" and there's "plugins", but there's no separation of what those two things can do -- plugins can change the site's look and feel, themes can change how the site (and WordPress itself!) works. As far as WP itself is concerned they're both just big bags of PHP code that can do anything PHP can do.

That leads to all sorts of debugging fun when something weird is happening, and opens up naïve users who assume that a "theme" is somehow safer than a "plugin" (because all themes do is change the look and feel, right?) to security risks from downloaded or hacked-up themes.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#22

Post by zaphoyd »

chrisblackwell wrote: post #14

WordPress could really change their bad reputation by dropping support for PHP 5.2 in the next release, and requiring 5.3. This would allow future WordPress developers to namespace their code, and out allow simple closures withint your code. As of PHP 5.5, there is no support for a straight mySQL connection. There is no real downside in WordPress adopting the PDO standard.

Do you have a source for PHP 5.5 dropping straight MySQL support? I'd like to read more.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#23

Post by smacktoward »

kalms wrote: post #20
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wordpress is its own PHP framework; in fact, PHP itself is a framework, provides everything frameworks do from database querying to templating.

Calling Wordpress a framework is like calling Symfony a programming language.

Much like Drupal, WordPress can be bent into something vaguely resembling a framework, if you're the type of person who enjoys that sort of thing. But being the type of person who likes using WordPress as a general-purpose framework is sort of like being the type of person who enjoys being tied up and beaten with a rubber hose. It's a weird, weird kink.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#24

Post by kalms »

smacktoward wrote: post #23
kalms wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Wordpress a framework is like calling Symfony a programming language.

Much like Drupal, WordPress can be bent into something vaguely resembling a framework, if you're the type of person who enjoys that sort of thing. But being the type of person who likes using WordPress as a general-purpose framework is sort of like being the type of person who enjoys being tied up and beaten with a rubber hose. It's a weird, weird kink.

Of the 2 I very much prefer Drupal. It's a bad CMS, but a great CMF. Wordpress is in my opinion the exact opposite.

That said, I haven't checked out the last 2 versions or so.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#25

Post by chrisblackwell »

zaphoyd wrote: post #22
chrisblackwell wrote: post #14

WordPress could really change their bad reputation by dropping support for PHP 5.2 in the next release, and requiring 5.3. This would allow future WordPress developers to namespace their code, and out allow simple closures withint your code. As of PHP 5.5, there is no support for a straight mySQL connection. There is no real downside in WordPress adopting the PDO standard.

Do you have a source for PHP 5.5 dropping straight MySQL support? I'd like to read more.

http://news.php.net/php.internals/53799

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#26

Post by ericingram »

NathanKP wrote: post #5

There is a more technical list, including the details on the improvements for developers here: http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_3.5 The biggest thing I wish WordPress would add is a better built in system for real templates, using a something along the lines of Twig ( http://twig.sensiolabs.org/ ). That mixed PHP code and HTML in your standard WordPress template disgusts me every time I see it. I know there are som…

Forward (a new e-commerce platform) uses a template engine and routing layer that might be something like what you describe. It works with MongoDB, has a REST-like model system, plugin system similar to WordPress, and you can do stuff like this in a template:

    {get $blogs from "/channels/blogs/entries"}
    ...
Alpha version was released just yesterday, you can sign up and download it at http://getfwd.com

/shameless plug

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#27

Post by chc »

diminish wrote: post #16
NathanKP wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very restrictive nature of a template pseudo language is one of its beneficial attributes. If, for example, you use PHP to create your templates then the very power and flexibility of PHP allows you to make a "quick fix" for a model issue in the template, or a function call from the template, and next thing you know your template is no longer just a view, but instead a messy hodgepodge of code along the lines of…

Somehow I expected, the valid argument against business logic mixing inside templates, making the case for a template language. I agree, but that way we are progressing towards dozens of languages in implementing a simple user function. For example, why not a language for controllers, and another one for models too? In contrary, I am in the pursuit for the one universal language to be used everyhere replacing, javasc…

You'd probably like Clojure.

As an aside, though, part of the reason we have different languages for things like backend code, markup and styling is that they're commonly done by different people with different specialties. A general-purpose language will not offer much benefit to a designer, but it will trip them up more often. Having a language tailored to your specialist is a good thing. The only time you'd really want everything done in one language is when the same coders are doing everything. I admit I'm in that situation very often, but it's more maintainable if you just use CSS or similar so that normal front-end guys can work with it.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#28

Post by colinramsay »

ericingram wrote: post #26
NathanKP wrote: post #5

There is a more technical list, including the details on the improvements for developers here: http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_3.5 The biggest thing I wish WordPress would add is a better built in system for real templates, using a something along the lines of Twig ( http://twig.sensiolabs.org/ ). That mixed PHP code and HTML in your standard WordPress template disgusts me every time I see it. I know there are som…

Forward (a new e-commerce platform) uses a template engine and routing layer that might be something like what you describe. It works with MongoDB, has a REST-like model system, plugin system similar to WordPress, and you can do stuff like this in a template: {get $blogs from "/channels/blogs/entries"} ... Alpha version was released just yesterday, you can sign up and download it at http://getfwd.com /shameless plug

You're querying from templates? Isn't that considered bad practise? Isn't there a potential problem with template designers querying for loads of data and issuing a slow query?

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#29

Post by pknight »

huskyr wrote: post #12
NathanKP wrote: post #5

There is a more technical list, including the details on the improvements for developers here: http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_3.5 The biggest thing I wish WordPress would add is a better built in system for real templates, using a something along the lines of Twig ( http://twig.sensiolabs.org/ ). That mixed PHP code and HTML in your standard WordPress template disgusts me every time I see it. I know there are som…

Yup, WordPress follows all bad practices of a typical PHP project: mixed PHP and HTML all over the place, lots of global functions instead of classes and direct calls to the MySQL functions instead of PDO so you can't use another database like Postgres. Pity it's so widely used, and there's little competition...

So you're basically saying that following bad practices is inconsequential since - among the thousands of CMSes, WordPress is the most widely adopted, despite an abundant availability of alternatives that claim to be simpler, more powerful and prettier. Interesting thought.

Re: WordPress 3.5 “Elvin” Released

#30

Post by icelancer »

huskyr wrote: post #12
NathanKP wrote: post #5

There is a more technical list, including the details on the improvements for developers here: http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_3.5 The biggest thing I wish WordPress would add is a better built in system for real templates, using a something along the lines of Twig ( http://twig.sensiolabs.org/ ). That mixed PHP code and HTML in your standard WordPress template disgusts me every time I see it. I know there are som…

Yup, WordPress follows all bad practices of a typical PHP project: mixed PHP and HTML all over the place, lots of global functions instead of classes and direct calls to the MySQL functions instead of PDO so you can't use another database like Postgres. Pity it's so widely used, and there's little competition...

No one is forcing you (or anyone) to use WordPress.
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