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You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

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Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#21

Post by emmapersky »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #17
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

> The harder we make it for them as a kid to express preferences the more repressed they will be I am obviously a parenting newbie, but what I don't understand is, why can't we just teach children to ignore/combat the repression? Is that something that only works at age >1x? Wouldn't that be a much longer-lasting solution? If humans were single-gendered, we would certainly find other ways to feel threatened about our…

Teaching kids to ignore / combat that is just one part of what we need to do. Sadly not all parents are as forward thinking as this, and are quite happy to subconsciously nudge their children into gendered roles.

If we combat this at the systemic level we stand a much better chance of bringing up successive generations in a less biased way, and maybe one day society will look back and think of our time as barbaric in the field of gender equality.

I don't think this is fight we can totally win now, or even in 20 years, but that doesn't mean we should give up. If we help just a single child become comfortable with their own identity, without fear of crossing gender stereotype lines I think we might get there.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#22

Post by m_eiman »

mattmanser wrote: post #15
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes?

The problem with any stereotype is that it limits choice ("I'm a boy so I -must- play with guns instead of dolls"), which leads to inefficient use of the potential of the next generation. To miss out on a math genius just because she happened to be a girl and was taught that she's too stupid to handle advanced math is detrimental to the advancement of the human race.

Boys and girls -are- physically different, but physical differences are enormous even within each gender (or race, if we're going to get into that kind of stereotype) and pretty much the only thing that's physically hardwired to be possible for only girls or boys are their respective functions in reproduction (almost, tech is making advances…).

So limit an individual's choices based on gender is as dumb as limiting them based on race. And yes, by only ever showing "boys using boys' toys" and "girls using girls' toys" we are in effect limiting the available choices for kids; we're a social species after all.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#23

Post by irahul »

> A few years ago, a feminist political party proposed a law requiring men to sit while urinating

> In 2004, the leader of the Sweden's Left Party Feminist Council, Gudrun Schyman,proposed a "man tax"—a special tariff to be levied on men to pay for all the violence and mayhem wrought by their sex.

Ever since Orwell wrote 1984, people keep confusing it for operation manual for effective governance. I sincerely hope this craziness is a couple of attentions seekers and/or hate mongers, and the majority doesn't agree with them.

> One Swedish school got rid of its toy cars because boys "gender-coded" them and ascribed the cars higher status than other toys. Another preschool removed "free playtime" from its schedule because, as a pedagogue at the school put it, when children play freely 'stereotypical gender patterns are born and cemented. In free play there is hierarchy, exclusion, and the seed to bullying.'

What brilliant minds. Let's stop citizens from going outside. Because, you know, when people go outside, mugging, rapes and shit happens.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#24

Post by saraid216 »

mattmanser wrote: post #15
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

And with one fell blow, you ignore the entire existence of transgenders. Good job!

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/...

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#25

Post by breakyerself »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #17
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

> The harder we make it for them as a kid to express preferences the more repressed they will be I am obviously a parenting newbie, but what I don't understand is, why can't we just teach children to ignore/combat the repression? Is that something that only works at age >1x? Wouldn't that be a much longer-lasting solution? If humans were single-gendered, we would certainly find other ways to feel threatened about our…

I would prefer to fight the battle on both of those fronts. Certainly the loving support of an understanding family will go a long way towards strengthening a child's ability to be themselves in a culture that will ridicule them for it, but what of those children who have neither a supportive family nor an inclusive culture. Don't we owe it to them to support advancement towards inclusiveness?

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#26

Post by user24 »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #17
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

> The harder we make it for them as a kid to express preferences the more repressed they will be I am obviously a parenting newbie, but what I don't understand is, why can't we just teach children to ignore/combat the repression? Is that something that only works at age >1x? Wouldn't that be a much longer-lasting solution? If humans were single-gendered, we would certainly find other ways to feel threatened about our…

> why can't we just teach children to...

This is something I used to ask until very recently; why can't I just teach my kids not to care about brands, not to be racist, not to be sexist, etc etc.

This would work, if my kids only learned from me. As long as there are sexists, racists, brand-bunnies, violent kids, etc around, my kids will learn from them too.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#27

Post by tehwalrus »

The thing I found interesting in this article (the only substantive bit) was the empirical evidence based on hormone exposure behaviour differences.

I'd like to see the study, to check it's not some faked up nonsense, and if it's true it would perhaps alter my perception of the issue slightly.

Of course, I still think that the enormous societal pressure of gendered marketing (transmitted most effectively through peer pressure even in very small children, it seems) makes it almost impossible to actually measure anything in these systems ethically. I just think that if there is an underlying biological signal there as well (which I didn't really believe before) then insisting on absolute neutrality everywhere (as in the Swedes' school setup) seems like it won't work.

Quite why the article included all the wacky ideas of the crazy lefties who aren't in charge, like a "man tax," I don't know; makes the article seem less balanced for sure.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#28

Post by pbhjpbhj »

emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

>* the only way we can ever change this is by starting young and eradicating gender bias where ever we see it* //

What's the motivation to change the world from reflecting the different sexes to one in which we pretend there are no differences between the sexes?

It's clearly a massive undertaking - instead of allowing children to follow they're natural leaning it's necessary to micromanage all their interactions. What's the benefit in that?

Ultimately you'd need to castrate all the men so no-one can have a gendered experience of sex. Remove women's wombs and force all children to be gestated ex utero so they don't have a gendered experience with a parent that will alter their behaviour. Even after these extreme measures you'd still have obvious physical and biological differences between men and women; such difference leading naturally to differences in behaviour and interaction.

My personally feeling is we need to accept that males and females differ biologically. Remove prejudice and unfounded preference as much as we're able from societal systems. Then get on and celebrate the differences and exploit the complementarities of our gendered existence.

>without biasing the media he sees so that he thinks only girls play with dolls //

I'm fortunate enough to be caring for two boys; it's mainly been girls that have provided rebukes based on gender. Not sure where 2 and 3 year old girls are getting it from but the most often gender-biased comments I've heard targeted at the boys has been "pink is only for girls" and "that's not for you it's for a girl". Strangely in my limited experience (though I work with young children every day) I've yet to hear any boys do the same sort of thing.

My rather long-winded second point being that it's not just commercial media you'd have to avoid to avoid any messages indicating [or exploiting/prejudicing] gender differences it's also other people.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#29

Post by emmapersky »

mattmanser wrote: post #15
emmapersky wrote: post #4

This article misses two absolutely critical points to the gender neutral debate. 1. Removing (or reducing) fixed gender stereotypes allows individuals to express themselves withut fear that they are different, or that some how their behavior is wrong. Weather girls prefer Barbies and boys prefer GI Joes is not relevant here. There are a significant number of kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, and this is e…

What is wrong with gender stereotypes? You must accept that our bodies are different. And we have different hormones. It is clear that there is an actual difference between the sexes. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this? Gender stereotypes are perfectly normal because we are different. What I do know is that male suicide rates are climbing . I'm not sure fuzzy gender roles have anything to do with it, but…

What is wrong with stereotypes is that they are stereotypes. They are fine as theoretical constructs in an educated debate, but they reek havoc on those who are still developing their sense of identity.

Gender stereotypes are the reason kids get called fag or dyke at school, irrespective of their sexual orientation. This is real, and these kids are suffering terribly because of it. The number of student suicides because of homophobic bullying is on the rise, and it is something we can fight against.

I'm not saying there are no differences (although there are virtually no professions that need be gender specific - men and women can be equally proficient at almost everything), but that we should foster an environment where we minimize those differences because the outcomes of not doing that quite literally destroys lives.

All the evidence you need can be found by checking out the "It Gets Better" campaign started by Dan Savage.

Re: You Can Give a Boy a Doll, but You Can't Make Him Play With It

#30

Post by saraid216 »

irahul wrote: post #23

> A few years ago, a feminist political party proposed a law requiring men to sit while urinating > In 2004, the leader of the Sweden's Left Party Feminist Council, Gudrun Schyman,proposed a "man tax"—a special tariff to be levied on men to pay for all the violence and mayhem wrought by their sex. Ever since Orwell wrote 1984, people keep confusing it for operation manual for effective governance. I sincerely hope th…

Obviously, the plural of anecdote is data. All hail.
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