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Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

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21–30 of 43 posts

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#21
Sometimes I find myself wondering what "thinking" even means. Someone proposes a frame, and then people who buy into that frame rally around it and work to reinforce it. Is that really thinking?

I keep coming back to this article's whole framing around the "culture war." Maybe it's because I'm not sharp enough to fully follow what smart people are saying, but this piece feels less like thinking and more like its arguments are running wild. The article ends up repeating the very error of the identity politics it sets out to criticize. It takes aim at identity centered interpretation, yet its own argument sets up class and identity as rivals in a zero sum game.

On the mechanisms of imperialism that the article lays out, I think it overreaches. Yes, we need to examine how relative status security works, things like class anxiety fused with racial superiority and imperial citizenship, and how material class anxiety gets politically channeled through identity hierarchies like race, nation, nationality, and gender. That's a worthwhile line of inquiry.

But the article seems to be offering a reductive, first order causal explanation of imperialism. The main drivers of imperialism were numerous: interstate competition, capital accumulation, bureaucratic organization, and more. The notion that the metropolitan working class and lower middle class derived psychological compensation from imperial status looks less like a cause of imperialism and more like a legitimizing mechanism after the fact. I suspect the author is channeling Orwell's own perspective as a socialist here. If not, then the level of analysis is simply too shallow.

And can we really pin the rise of the modern far right on economic anxiety alone? I don't think so. Not everyone facing similar economic conditions turns to right wing populism. What matters is how political leaders, the media, the collapse of local industry, generation, education, the loss of cultural status, and the party system organize that anxiety into a particular political language.

Forces like MAGA are fundamentally rooted in the Bible Belt. Their lives are bound up with religious community, and they become right wing based on those values. In the end, it's a complex entanglement of cultural and geographical positioning. That said, I do agree that some political demagogues use cultural codes as fuel.

So honestly, I don't really know.

It's frustrating not being able to write logically in English, as if I've been muzzled. It's not my native language. But here's the core of it: even if we assume AI was behind the exclusion, we don't know the premise behind that decision. So how can anyone call it a "purge"? It could be an AI hallucination. Or maybe the AI judged that dystopian novels don't fit the modern context. Without any account of the process, I find it hard to follow the logic that just leaps straight to framing it as class warfare.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#22
> We can see similar patterns today. The European working class can no longer seek status in the colonies, so it is turning to the political right. Deprived of the security and opportunities promised by neoliberalism, the working classes increasingly seek inclusion through the exclusion of others.

I see the same on HN when a topic about H1 B visas is posted. Going by comments on such posts Immigration seems to be fine as long as it is affecting blue collar work. The pitchforks are out when it concerns one's own job. Then they talk about quality of programmers, outsourcing companies, the process of H1B not being fair etc.

Makes me think that it's insecurity about finance and status, but not limited to a certain economic class.

> Populist parties frame migration as an economic and cultural threat. They blame migrants for problems ranging from crime to unemployment. And while social democratic parties are campaigning on ideological platforms, many voters still prioritise material security. Voting patterns suggest that class remains central.

This framing of the issue suggests that the issue is not real, while it could be a simple matter of people being worried about their financial well being and safety.

Consider the Pakistani Grooming gangs in UK with estimates suggesting up to 250,000 potential victims nationwide over several decades.

Many of the victims were young working class. Their plight was ignored so as not to antagonize a community. Dismissive attitudes towards victims: Many of the victims were working-class, vulnerable, or living in state care. Authorities often stigmatized them as "troubled" or "consenting," systematically ignoring their cries for help and failing to implement a child-centered approach.

As per BBC - Institutional paralysis: Police forces and local authorities lacked adequate training and suffered from severe bureaucratic dysfunction. In some instances, agencies viewed the gangs’ ethnic minority status and cultural backgrounds as "no-go" zones, allowing criminal networks to operate hidden behind the shield of "cultural sensitivities"

So to ensure that you are not being 'against migrants' created a situation that was hell for a lot of women.

We don't know if European Working class in other countries are seeing similar issues that happened in UK but were brushed under by the police and the British Media.

Let's not paint the working class as naive and just against migrants as 'seek inclusion through the exclusion of others."

The working class was not against migrants all along. If something changed, we should try to find out what the real issue is.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#23
post #3

[flagged]

> having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers which even Asimov in the 1980s could see was laughably inefficient 1984 was published in 1949. It's a bit harsh to expect him to have anticipated computers

Read what Asimov says in his review, the whole idea is fundamentally absurd when you think about it for even a second.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#24
post #9
post #3

[flagged]

I find Orwell to be a much better writer than Asimov, and 1984 was praised by people like Bertrand Russell (who was arguably a greater writer than either of them, even winning a Nobel Prize). Also, Orwell was shot in the neck in Spain while literally fighting fascists. Still, thank you for the link to Asimov’s review. I’ll read it later.

I find Orwell is infantile in the extreme.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#25
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is beyond silly. The guy who wrote Down and Out… and Road to Wigan Pier, and actually fought fascists in Spain, couldn’t imagine proles as anything but brainless subhumans? Orwell in 1948 didn’t predict computers? Have I been trolled?

Obvious troll. Calling Orwell a rich kid who got his feelings hurt is obscene. I challenge anyone who says that to work as a plongeur for even one week. Or to live on only toast and tea, bumming around the work houses in the UK. He never begged for money from anyone, he only worked during this time, and his book on the topic is remarkable. It's a must read for anyone who's ever worked in the food service industry. Hi…

The guy was literally just slumming it by choice. Only one trolling here is you bud.

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#26

Somewhat meta: this is perhaps the most fertile ground for an online flamewar I've ever seen. It's got something for everyone. Any ideology I can think of could be applied both for and against with equal ferocity.

How so? Orwell's stories dealt with class protectionism, and how the average person unwittingly contributes to systems of oppression and exclusion. Empire is about outsourcing the bottom end of inequality.

The article is about how removing those books - for the very stated reasons you outlines - could, according to the author, contribute to the rise of the right and the destruction of those ends.

(just an example; it really can be framed from pretty much any angle)

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#28
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers which even Asimov in the 1980s could see was laughably inefficient 1984 was published in 1949. It's a bit harsh to expect him to have anticipated computers

Read what Asimov says in his review, the whole idea is fundamentally absurd when you think about it for even a second.

Asimov seems to have missed that the book does not claim that everyone is being watched at all times, but that everyone could be watched at any time, in any place, and that they have no way to know for sure if they are at any given moment. Therefore, they have to behave as if they are under surveillance at all times, just in case. It’s a very effective and practical means of control. See the famous panopticon concept. You don’t even need a guard in the tower, just the threat of one most of the time, and occasional random, unpredictable enforcement just often enough that the surveilled cannot relax. The cost of doing so is not impractical at all.

Asimov is missing an important point that is pretty clearly spelled out in the novel, and this severely weakens his critique. I find this pretty funny because he starts off the essay insinuating that others who claim to love the book haven’t read it. Same to you for hating it without having understood it, Asimov!

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#29
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having humans watch every citizen on camera instead of just using computers which even Asimov in the 1980s could see was laughably inefficient 1984 was published in 1949. It's a bit harsh to expect him to have anticipated computers

Read what Asimov says in his review, the whole idea is fundamentally absurd when you think about it for even a second.

That review is hilarious.

"To summarise, then: George Orwell in 1984 was, in my opinion, engaging in a private feud with Stalinism, rather that attempting to forecast the future."

He really got it!

And shows how fundamentally Asimov misunderstands how totalitarian societies work. "Furthermore, he has a system of volunteer spies in which children report on their parents, and neighbours on each other. This cannot possibly work well since eventually everyone reports everyone else and it all has to be abandoned"

Re: Purging George Orwell's books misses what drives the political right

#30

Reminds me of an observation made when they removed Maus from a library in Tennessee I think it was: "these people want a kinder gentler Holocaust." It's totally idiotic the state we have reached, with an absolutely equal number of stupid people on the left and the right.

I have come to the same conclusion. Not sure how we pull people towards the center.
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