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EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

wsj.com

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Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#21

Post by ZeroGravitas »

foreigner wrote: post #13
whatever1 wrote: post #12

Wasn’t the same concern with the Toyota Prius when it was first released? Only for all the doubters to be proven wrong by the taxi drivers who kept beating Priuses for decades. In any case battery failure seems rare but it still is catastrophic and nobody can afford replacement. Hence companies should just provide some sort of warranty / insurance product for the few unlucky folks. Seems like an ideal candidate.

They do.

Generally enforced by regulation, particularly tied to any government grant program to encourage EV adoption.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#22

Post by stavros »

defrost wrote: post #15
stavros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium batteries age even just sitting on the shelf. I fly RC planes and we store our batteries at 3.8V to lengthen their life, but they still deteriorate even when not used. Like anything else, I guess.

The article specifically talks about how this has changed with the evolution of chemistry in Li based car batteries. I suspect the RC plane batteries you've been using for five years are not the same chemically as the EV car batteries in use in the UK for five years.

I can't read the article, as it's paywalled, but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference? Hell, most cars just use the same 18650 cells we use, just a lot more of them.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#23

Post by nubinetwork »

stavros wrote: post #14
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They still die by calendar age based degradation Source?

Lithium batteries age even just sitting on the shelf. I fly RC planes and we store our batteries at 3.8V to lengthen their life, but they still deteriorate even when not used. Like anything else, I guess.

Can confirm, I bought some Panasonic cells roughly 10 years ago for a battery pack, and have ~12 cells that didn't make it into the pack.

They've been sitting unused, in their original packaging, never opened... They're still sitting at the charge they shipped at, but the capacity is so diminished that one can't even run an esp32 for a day. I've tried cycling them to see if I can get the capacity back up, but I think they're toast already.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#24

Post by imtringued »

foxglacier wrote: post #16
small_model wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False "A 2015 Model S with over 265,000 miles on the original battery (85% capacity remaining)"

That's 25000 miles per year, which is high. So the opposite of false.

So according to you, the more you degrade the battery, the longer it lasts?

Usually you would think that 25000 miles per year over 11 years would degrade the battery faster than the car just sitting around for 11 years.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#25

Post by stavros »

nubinetwork wrote: post #23
stavros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium batteries age even just sitting on the shelf. I fly RC planes and we store our batteries at 3.8V to lengthen their life, but they still deteriorate even when not used. Like anything else, I guess.

Can confirm, I bought some Panasonic cells roughly 10 years ago for a battery pack, and have ~12 cells that didn't make it into the pack. They've been sitting unused, in their original packaging, never opened... They're still sitting at the charge they shipped at, but the capacity is so diminished that one can't even run an esp32 for a day. I've tried cycling them to see if I can get the capacity back up, but I think…

Yeah, and those come at 3.8V (storage voltage) already, so it's not like they were sitting fully charged.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#26

Post by duskwuff »

Exoristos wrote: post #20
whatever1 wrote: post #12

Wasn’t the same concern with the Toyota Prius when it was first released? Only for all the doubters to be proven wrong by the taxi drivers who kept beating Priuses for decades. In any case battery failure seems rare but it still is catastrophic and nobody can afford replacement. Hence companies should just provide some sort of warranty / insurance product for the few unlucky folks. Seems like an ideal candidate.

Those old taxi Priuses have had their batteries replaced.

They were also using NiMH batteries - a completely different chemistry from modern lithium batteries.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#27

Post by defrost »

stavros wrote: post #22
defrost wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article specifically talks about how this has changed with the evolution of chemistry in Li based car batteries. I suspect the RC plane batteries you've been using for five years are not the same chemically as the EV car batteries in use in the UK for five years.

I can't read the article, as it's paywalled, but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference? Hell, most cars just use the same 18650 cells we use, just a lot more of them.

> but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference?

As I mentioned, the article specifically mentions that the battery chemistry has been changed and improved.

It neglects to dive into the chemical engineering specifics of such changes, as would be expected for press such as the WSJ.

I dare say there is as much variation in the attributes of the LiPo/Li-Ion battery family as there is within the borosilicate glass or soda–lime glass families (ie heaps).

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#28

Post by bfjvibybd6cuvu6 »

duskwuff wrote: post #26
Exoristos wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those old taxi Priuses have had their batteries replaced.

They were also using NiMH batteries - a completely different chemistry from modern lithium batteries.

Lithium EV batteries are regularly serviced and repaired?

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#29

Post by InsideOutSanta »

small_model wrote: post #8
cgyvbunji wrote: post #4

They still die by calendar age based degradation. High miles low years isn't interesting. We know that works well. They don't like talking about the calendar age degradation. Every article like this leaves that part out. It's annoying. Many articles have been written like this. Many more will be written yet. I guess there are still people out there who don't know that EVs are ideal for drivers who accumulate high mil…

False "A 2015 Model S with over 265,000 miles on the original battery (85% capacity remaining)"

My EV is also over ten years old and has no noticeable battery degradation. I'm sure there is some degradation that could be measured, but in daily driving, I have the same range I did the day I bought the car.

Re: EV Batteries Are Defying Expectations After Miles

#30

Post by stavros »

defrost wrote: post #27
stavros wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read the article, as it's paywalled, but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference? Hell, most cars just use the same 18650 cells we use, just a lot more of them.

> but they're all LiPo/Li-Ion batteries, what's the difference? As I mentioned, the article specifically mentions that the battery chemistry has been changed and improved. It neglects to dive into the chemical engineering specifics of such changes, as would be expected for press such as the WSJ. I dare say there is as much variation in the attributes of the LiPo/Li-Ion battery family as there is within the borosilica…

Sure, but why are you assuming RC planes don't use the chemistry improvements as they come out?
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