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How working memory could give rise to consciousness

scientificamerican.com

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Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#21

Post by mapontosevenths »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #12
d00d0ff000 wrote: post #3

It does not. Consciousness is the echo chamber of the quantum domain, temporally propagating through cognitive technology. Memory and temporal propagation (awareness) give consciousness something to do, which makes it topically interesting and addressable. The quantum domain has a tremendous information density which scales through entanglement (by the tens of thousands or even millions in our neurons) allowing the u…

Do you have any references for these claims? I’m also curious how you define consciousness.

> I’m also curious how you define consciousness.

This is what I came here for. Every article or commenter that attempts to deduce the roots of consciousness should first start by defining it. I have yet to see anyone even bother to seriously try.

If I spent all my time trying to figure out the fundamental forces involved in floopityjoop, but refused to ever define exactly what a floopityjoop was, you would ignore me, laugh at me, or feel pity for me.

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#23

Post by mapontosevenths »

analog31 wrote: post #16
bookofjoe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW the only place I EVER see the phrase "citation needed" is on HN. That's not a good or a bad thing: it's simply an observation.

With apologies to the above post if I'm wrong, I've seen it as a polite way of saying, "bullshit."

> I've seen it as a polite way of saying, "bullshit."

Only if they can't provide a reliable citation.

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#24

Post by thansz »

cloudie78 wrote: post #22

We can’t define or measure consciousness - because we haven’t discovered how. So, we can’t define or measure it, but we can create it? How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

Not thoroughly understanding consciousness doesn't mean we can't create it. All sorts of phenomena are created without an understanding of the underlying mechanism. The entire animal kingdom, including us humans, have been creating conscious beings (babies) without understanding how consciousness actually works.

Of course, understanding the mechanism is helpful if you want control, reliability, and precision over the phenomena, but creation can definitely happen before we can explain it.

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#25

Post by vitally3643 »

cloudie78 wrote: post #22

We can’t define or measure consciousness - because we haven’t discovered how. So, we can’t define or measure it, but we can create it? How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

> How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

Through engineering.

This isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. Throughout our entire history as a species, we've been building things long, long before we had the tools to understand them. We built bridges and massive cathedrals before we invented geometry. We built and optimized steam engines for a century before we developed the language of fluid dynamics to understand why those designs were optimal.

Engineering very frequently is far ahead of the science needed to explain it.

As far as consciousness goes, personally I think it's an emergent property that will arise on its own when conditions are right. It will take a lot of experimentation to establish the right conditions, and then generations of study to figure out why those conditions were ideal for consciousness to emerge.

Because realistically we can't learn about consciousness with a sample size of one (us). We need to study other consciousnesses to understand the why and hows.

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#26

Post by AndrewKemendo »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #21
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any references for these claims? I’m also curious how you define consciousness.

> I’m also curious how you define consciousness. This is what I came here for. Every article or commenter that attempts to deduce the roots of consciousness should first start by defining it. I have yet to see anyone even bother to seriously try. If I spent all my time trying to figure out the fundamental forces involved in floopityjoop, but refused to ever define exactly what a floopityjoop was, you would ignore me,…

Hence why I ask

In my experience, “intelligence” and “consciousness” are socially defined categories and can’t be viewed objectively

There’s too much social weight on those to have a firm definition because the social implications are too grave and nobody is willing to give up their philosophy for a precise definition

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#27

Post by hackingonempty »

cloudie78 wrote: post #22

We can’t define or measure consciousness - because we haven’t discovered how. So, we can’t define or measure it, but we can create it? How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

Consciousness is what the brain is doing.

I look forward to more precise definitions.

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#28

Post by visarga »

cloudie78 wrote: post #22

We can’t define or measure consciousness - because we haven’t discovered how. So, we can’t define or measure it, but we can create it? How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

> How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

animals can have offspring without understanding reproduction

Re: How working memory could give rise to consciousness

#29

Post by visarga »

hackingonempty wrote: post #27
cloudie78 wrote: post #22

We can’t define or measure consciousness - because we haven’t discovered how. So, we can’t define or measure it, but we can create it? How do you create that which is not definable or measurable?

Consciousness is what the brain is doing. I look forward to more precise definitions.

Consciousness is what the body is doing to be viable.

Without it we can't walk, eat, reproduce, or do anything. I like to think cost viability reasons explain consciousness. I know people prefer metaphysical or quantum magic explanations, I prefer a prosaic one - cost. It's a mechanism to keep our costs offset by gains. Cost can also explain unity - we die as one organism, not each organ on its own.

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