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Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

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Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#21

Post by gruez »

varispeed wrote: post #15

Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow. So here Samsung and SK Hynix could say they price match to Micron and they are in the clear.

>Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow.

No, the key term is "collusion", which could be done in the open or not. If a competitor told you they were unilaterally raising prices in secret, that would still be legal. Where you get into trouble is if you are cooperating to set prices. And no, this is all determined by a judge so cute workarounds like "I'm telling my competitors that I'm raising prices then gauging his body language" won't work.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#22

Post by lenerdenator »

glimshe wrote: post #6

Everybody in our industry loves fat margins. But god forbid if someone else captures the margins and squeeze them out of easy profits.

There's "fat margins" and then there's the kind of margins that tech industry shareholders expect.

OpenAI's original corporate agreements capped its returns at 100x, which is seen as too paltry for its current holders, so they scrapped those to prepare for an IPO [0]

That is, in a word, insane.

[0] https://abhs.in/blog/openai-for-profit-conversion-ipo-develo...

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#23

Post by Arubis »

cute_boi wrote: post #13

I think the only solution to this issue is China. If CXMT can supply, it will put all these monopolies in check.

That’s a nice short-term solution. How do you envision adding an infinitely-deep-pocketed state-sponsored supplier to the mix over the longer term?

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#24

Post by vablings »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #11
WarmWash wrote: post #8

Just a reminder that anyone can file a lawsuit over anything, and the initial complaint is written by lawyers and reads with tabloid levels of sensationalism and allegation. The goal being to maximize the appearance of harm as much as possible so the suit has the greatest chance of sticking. It is not in any way, shape, or form a ruling much less even a piece of well researched work. It's "my side of the story that m…

Honestly a lot of lawsuits feel like they just want the other party to pay them (settle) to make the lawsuit go away, even if there is no case; what are the repercussions for a frivolous lawsuit?

Realistically very few. The plaintiff carries the burden of proving the claim, but they are afforded the power of the law to do so via discovery. The defendant then has to spend a large number of legal resources refusing the claims and also providing the evidence required.

If the plaintiff loses the lawsuit a countersuit is pretty unlikely to succeed unless the lawyer participates in gross misconduct. Generally, countersuits are filed more to put the original plaintiff on the defense and don't result in a large judgement.

If you are operating in good faith, then you are pretty insular from kickback as a plaintiff

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#25

Post by lotsofpulp »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #11
WarmWash wrote: post #8

Just a reminder that anyone can file a lawsuit over anything, and the initial complaint is written by lawyers and reads with tabloid levels of sensationalism and allegation. The goal being to maximize the appearance of harm as much as possible so the suit has the greatest chance of sticking. It is not in any way, shape, or form a ruling much less even a piece of well researched work. It's "my side of the story that m…

Honestly a lot of lawsuits feel like they just want the other party to pay them (settle) to make the lawsuit go away, even if there is no case; what are the repercussions for a frivolous lawsuit?

>what are the repercussions for a frivolous lawsuit?

None, hence the high price of liability baked into basically everything in America. And not just in nominal prices, but in terms of things like restricting access to spaces, restricting access to information, etc.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#26

Post by pdimitar »

Neywiny wrote: post #7

HBM is also DRAM. I also think it's kind of a weak argument to say that them discontinuing ddr3 (which while in use still today in industrial/embedded was on the way out for consumers 10 years ago) and ddr4 which last had consumer CPUs for it 3 years ago is meaningful. What we need now is ddr5. Turning off the old fabs and moving those resources including people to ddr5 is a good thing. That's not price fixing. It's…

Dropping DDR-4 is anything but meaningful. It'll easily last 10 more years, machines from this gen are still much more affordable and quite powerful. In fact for most dev and gaming workflows the difference between the DDR-4 and DDR-5 generation of hardware is more or less negligible. I am exaggerating a bit -- but really, not too much.

Of course it might be a ploy to sheep-herd consumers and companies towards the expensive DDR-5. I would not put that below the ring of RAM producers.

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#27

Post by gruez »

pdimitar wrote: post #26
Neywiny wrote: post #7

HBM is also DRAM. I also think it's kind of a weak argument to say that them discontinuing ddr3 (which while in use still today in industrial/embedded was on the way out for consumers 10 years ago) and ddr4 which last had consumer CPUs for it 3 years ago is meaningful. What we need now is ddr5. Turning off the old fabs and moving those resources including people to ddr5 is a good thing. That's not price fixing. It's…

Dropping DDR-4 is anything but meaningful. It'll easily last 10 more years, machines from this gen are still much more affordable and quite powerful. In fact for most dev and gaming workflows the difference between the DDR-4 and DDR-5 generation of hardware is more or less negligible. I am exaggerating a bit -- but really, not too much. Of course it might be a ploy to sheep-herd consumers and companies towards the ex…

>Dropping DDR-4 is anything but meaningful. It'll easily last 10 more years, machines from this gen are still much more affordable and quite powerful. In fact for most dev and gaming workflows the difference between the DDR-4 and DDR-5 generation of hardware is more or less negligible. I am exaggerating a bit -- but really, not too much.

How much % of the DRAM market do you think is made from computer enthusiasts upgrading their Zen 1/2 CPUs to Zen 3? Note intel and AMD both switched to DDR5 well before the exit from DDR3/DDR4 ("2024-2025", according to the complaint).

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#29

Post by pdimitar »

gruez wrote: post #27
pdimitar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dropping DDR-4 is anything but meaningful. It'll easily last 10 more years, machines from this gen are still much more affordable and quite powerful. In fact for most dev and gaming workflows the difference between the DDR-4 and DDR-5 generation of hardware is more or less negligible. I am exaggerating a bit -- but really, not too much. Of course it might be a ploy to sheep-herd consumers and companies towards the ex…

>Dropping DDR-4 is anything but meaningful. It'll easily last 10 more years, machines from this gen are still much more affordable and quite powerful. In fact for most dev and gaming workflows the difference between the DDR-4 and DDR-5 generation of hardware is more or less negligible. I am exaggerating a bit -- but really, not too much. How much % of the DRAM market do you think is made from computer enthusiasts upg…

The mere "enthusiast" word in your question suggests the percent is not too big. But I am not sure I get your point -- elaborate, please?

Re: Samsung, SK Hynix, Micron Sued in US over Memory Price Fixing

#30

Post by dcrazy »

varispeed wrote: post #15

Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open. In the UK it is called "price match" and eg. if supermarket says they keep prices matched to their competitor. No regulator raises an eyebrow. So here Samsung and SK Hynix could say they price match to Micron and they are in the clear.

> Price fixing is legal as long as your are doing it in the open.

In the U.S., competitors are allowed to act in similar ways in response to economic realities, as long as they each arrive at that decision independently. But publicly anchoring your price to a competitor’s is potentially illegal.

> Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, orinferred from conduct) among competitors to raise, lower, maintain, or stabilize prices or price levels.

[Emphasis added]

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

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