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Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

wilsoniumite.com

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Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#21

Post by Wilsoniumite »

kjshsh123 wrote: post #20
Wilsoniumite wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, I think the real problem is a liiiiittle more nuanced than just the great stagnation. But that's the graph people know. The issue can be read out in more detail from other graphs too, I'm working on an updated piece. I mention georgism at the end of the piece as well. But do you agree with the theoretical framing? People not being able to not work forces them to find something. It's like an iron ore depo…

I don't really. It smells to me like the lump of labor fallacy. Labor participation results from supply and demand and it going down does not necessarily indicate less demand, but can also indicate less supply. That's what you'd expect as countries and the world become wealthier. Leisure is a normal good.

That's fair, they seem similar at first glance.

The difference is that we are asking the economy to create jobs even when it doesn't "want" to. It still will, the lump of labor fallacy is indeed a fallacy, but that doesn't mean this isn't causing a lot of harm.

We aren't draining the earth's oceans (yet) because its supply is more than the earth needs right now. One day we might, but how much we draw is decided by the economy.

But for labor supply is forced, capital flows there when it shouldn't, politics chases it. The economy, ever adaptable, provides jobs where it can.

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#23

Post by spwa4 »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #5

We're not going to get economic change until the people revolt. This doesn't need to be a revolt with guns and bombs, it could just be a refusal to pay taxes and to purchase things. The US has shown that it's extremely vulnerable to economic warfare given how little slack there is in the system for absorbing shocks, so it's the perfect avenue for asymmetric warfare.

Aren't people going to revolt still have to work? What's the point? If the revolution succeeds they'll have zero access to imported goods, because nothing to exchange (and that includes TV's, smartphones, computers, cars, internet, ... for essentially everywhere) AND have to work way more.

That's the reward the revolution can conquer. Hurray!

Even if you have a magic fairy wand, and make this happen, UBI can never exceed worldwide average income. What does that mean? The global PPP average income is 2000 dollars BEFORE tax, so let's say 1200 after tax. Oh and that's PPP, not USD. So that's adjusting so rent is the same as now. Food costs the same as now. Restaurants charge the same as they do now.

Why would any American at all be in favor of that?

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#24

Post by cassianoleal »

tumdum_ wrote: post #13
bob001 wrote: post #8

Isn't VAT generally a regressive tax so does the exact opposite of what the author thinks it does? The rich spend less versus their income than other demographics. I guess the UBI is to offset that but that just doesn't seem like a stable system.

The author addresses this exact concern.

Badly

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#25

Post by CuriouslyC »

spwa4 wrote: post #23
CuriouslyC wrote: post #5

We're not going to get economic change until the people revolt. This doesn't need to be a revolt with guns and bombs, it could just be a refusal to pay taxes and to purchase things. The US has shown that it's extremely vulnerable to economic warfare given how little slack there is in the system for absorbing shocks, so it's the perfect avenue for asymmetric warfare.

Aren't people going to revolt still have to work? What's the point? If the revolution succeeds they'll have zero access to imported goods, because nothing to exchange (and that includes TV's, smartphones, computers, cars, internet, ... for essentially everywhere) AND have to work way more. That's the reward the revolution can conquer. Hurray! Even if you have a magic fairy wand, and make this happen, UBI can never ex…

the end goal is to cause bad actors to go bankrupt and force politicians to bend the knee to the people rather than oligarchs with a unified show of force, not to reduce the USA to developing nation status.

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#26

Post by spwa4 »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #25
spwa4 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't people going to revolt still have to work? What's the point? If the revolution succeeds they'll have zero access to imported goods, because nothing to exchange (and that includes TV's, smartphones, computers, cars, internet, ... for essentially everywhere) AND have to work way more. That's the reward the revolution can conquer. Hurray! Even if you have a magic fairy wand, and make this happen, UBI can never ex…

the end goal is to cause bad actors to go bankrupt and force politicians to bend the knee to the people rather than oligarchs with a unified show of force, not to reduce the USA to developing nation status.

And I guess you don't name any bad actors because of course nobody would agree who is a bad actor and who isn't.

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#27

Post by CuriouslyC »

spwa4 wrote: post #26
CuriouslyC wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the end goal is to cause bad actors to go bankrupt and force politicians to bend the knee to the people rather than oligarchs with a unified show of force, not to reduce the USA to developing nation status.

And I guess you don't name any bad actors because of course nobody would agree who is a bad actor and who isn't.

I have my opinions, but it's ultimately up to collective action and advocacy to decide. I'm pretty sure Oracle or Adobe wouldn't get any pushback though.

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#28

Post by spwa4 »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #27
spwa4 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I guess you don't name any bad actors because of course nobody would agree who is a bad actor and who isn't.

I have my opinions, but it's ultimately up to collective action and advocacy to decide. I'm pretty sure Oracle or Adobe wouldn't get any pushback though.

Who will replace their software? I mean, Oracle is famous for somehow convincing many hospitals to run on their software. So you'll have to either accept they won't run anymore or rewrite thousands of systems ... And I bet worldwide we're talking hundreds of thousands. Who will do that and how will you pay them?

But even that is nothing compared to the other question. You want the US to be better than third world. Ok ... but that depends on the third world not getting these advantages. So how will you force the actual third world to keep working for much less rights and ... than you give people in the US for free?

Because "the revolution" of course doesn't work without that.

Re: Labor Is a Market Distortion, we need VAT and UBI

#30

Post by OutOfHere »

VAT for essentials like food, medicine and household supplies makes zero sense; it will greatly hurt the poor. Save the VAT exclusively for luxury items like clothing, furniture, travel, etc. which the rich spend a lot on. Computers qualify as essential and must not be VATed either.

---

VAT joke:

Question: Why is there is no VAT in the Vatican?

Answer (reversed): "!tcelloc t'nseod dog esuaceB"

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