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Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

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21–30 of 98 posts

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#21
One month I could use Github Copilot fully with no disruptions. The next month, after pricing changes, I’ve run out of tokens in two days.

Such drastic changes tell me that pricing of tokens is arbitrary, and AI business is running out of money fast.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#23
post #18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes Tokens will remain a meaningful expense. I’m not sure developers will find uses for ever more tokens nearly as quickly as the prices fall.

How are we so confident that prices will fall? Isn't the exact opposite happening, right now, during arguably the most critical part of this whole saga (pre-IPO to make things appear as beautiful and as not-obviously-illegal as possible)? And the only reason they were "falling" previously was for hyper growth.

The Growth aspect mentioned is that VCs are subsidizing the bill right now, so it is hard to know if at the current moment the demand curve would promote as much usage without it, but assuming demand remained constant (not even growing), you could expect token prices to be competed down. It is a commodity without a moat.

Now that we have pretty decent open source models, anyone can create a new business to supply more tokens. Sure there’s short term scarcity: energy, GPUs, cooling, but this is a scale up problem. More token demand = more data center build = more energy plant build. This downward pressure will also keep frontier private model prices in check.

Differentiation seems to be happening at the harness level, whereby we can expect token spend to be a metric to compete on and drive down for the customer (at least hoping tools in the application space don’t continue token based billing as their primary revenue stream).

These are not short term hyper growth forces, but a fundamental alignment of incentives.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#24
post #18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes Tokens will remain a meaningful expense. I’m not sure developers will find uses for ever more tokens nearly as quickly as the prices fall.

How are we so confident that prices will fall? Isn't the exact opposite happening, right now, during arguably the most critical part of this whole saga (pre-IPO to make things appear as beautiful and as not-obviously-illegal as possible)? And the only reason they were "falling" previously was for hyper growth.

it is falling if you look elsewhere, deepseek made their 75% discount on their V4 models permanent, on one hand there's LLM improvements that make inference cheaper (e.i. MoE, hybrid attention), on the other hand we're getting more inference focused chips that break the nvidia monopoly.

i don't think a lot of people know this, but a cluster of GPUs can serve multiple clients without much of a drop in performance, e.i. worst case scenario you band together with 6-16 people to run a 2-3 H100 server to host deepseek V4 Flash or 4-6 to run Pro, and you're getting the same performance as if you ran it alone, this means a lot of companies can afford throwing 50-100k into their own LLM server cluster.

We're at a price point where if you push it further people will move, there's no real vendor lock in, your agent config, skills, MCP servers etc are all reusable with other models and harnesses, so unless you get all providers to collude on a price hike, you risk an exodus of customers

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#25
post #21

One month I could use Github Copilot fully with no disruptions. The next month, after pricing changes, I’ve run out of tokens in two days. Such drastic changes tell me that pricing of tokens is arbitrary, and AI business is running out of money fast.

I think it's more a consequence of pushing for the biggest valuation/IPO. Rumoured profits on inference are north of 70%.

Taking SpaceX as an example, they have increased prices across all their consumer products over the past six months. But they definitely aren't short on money with Alphabet and Anthropic combined paying them over $2 billion per month.

Microsoft/GitHub lost out here as they were just repacking other people's products.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#26
post #21

One month I could use Github Copilot fully with no disruptions. The next month, after pricing changes, I’ve run out of tokens in two days. Such drastic changes tell me that pricing of tokens is arbitrary, and AI business is running out of money fast.

I think it's more a consequence of pushing for the biggest valuation/IPO. Rumoured profits on inference are north of 70%. Taking SpaceX as an example, they have increased prices across all their consumer products over the past six months. But they definitely aren't short on money with Alphabet and Anthropic combined paying them over $2 billion per month. Microsoft/GitHub lost out here as they were just repacking othe…

[deleted]

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#27
post #18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes Tokens will remain a meaningful expense. I’m not sure developers will find uses for ever more tokens nearly as quickly as the prices fall.

How are we so confident that prices will fall? Isn't the exact opposite happening, right now, during arguably the most critical part of this whole saga (pre-IPO to make things appear as beautiful and as not-obviously-illegal as possible)? And the only reason they were "falling" previously was for hyper growth.

In the one direction the hardware continues to improve, new buildouts continue to come online, and methods for improving the parameter efficiency of models continue to be discovered.

In the other direction models continue to grow larger, new customers continue to arrive, and existing customers continue to find ever more creative ways to burn large quantities of tokens as the prices fall.

I doubt anyone can say with certainty where the equilibrium will be 1 or 5 years from now largely because (among many other things) it's impossible to predict how much of the current economy AI will end up eating. In general though the third party providers of open weights models are probably the most reliable data source available since they have little to no incentive to subsidize usage.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#29
post #21

One month I could use Github Copilot fully with no disruptions. The next month, after pricing changes, I’ve run out of tokens in two days. Such drastic changes tell me that pricing of tokens is arbitrary, and AI business is running out of money fast.

I think it's more a consequence of pushing for the biggest valuation/IPO. Rumoured profits on inference are north of 70%. Taking SpaceX as an example, they have increased prices across all their consumer products over the past six months. But they definitely aren't short on money with Alphabet and Anthropic combined paying them over $2 billion per month. Microsoft/GitHub lost out here as they were just repacking othe…

Inference can only happen after having invested in training and datacenter construction. Arguing about "inference profitability" sounds a lot to me like ignoring large cost centers of these comanies.

Re: Tokenomics: Quantifying Where Tokens Are Used in Agentic Software Engineering

#30
At its current iteration the AI tech market is not economically sustainable, not for the other markets outside the AI economy, and most deadly not even for the main target customers or AI tech companies themselves. There have been several news of companies having overspent their token budget month after month. The hardware monopolist and his network of buddy companies can determine the token price as freely as they want, there are no competitors, their only "competitor" is when people stop using AI alltogether.
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