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Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

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Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#21

Post by otherme123 »

throwiudjd wrote: post #15
Morromist wrote: post #4

One of my favorite dynamics: Warrior class that really kicks butt, takes control over the state and then slowly becomes obsolete but is so embedded in the social structure that it just sticks around sucking up vast resources for hundreds of years. I've read the Ottoman Empire had this happen with the Janissaries, but there are lots of other instances of the military becoming a colossal useless but dangerous parasite,…

Sounds like current US. Military industrial complex just starts wars randomly, and does not bother with approval from senate.

I live in a country that was ruled by the military many times in the past, and the US never looked to me under treat of a military coup.

In my country, any political problem real or perceived, and part of the population are already asking for the military to attempt a coup and fix things.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#22

Post by red_admiral »

jitl wrote: post #18
RobotToaster wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also stated in enterprise that Klingons do have other castes, the warrior caste is just the most dominant. (Although the caste system doesn't seem strictly hereditary)

is it really that far fetched that instead of bikes, football, and basketball, klingon society decided to give all their kids batleths, so everyone grows up really into it?

That sort of happened in a brief period in mediaeval England when they gave everyone longbows.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#23

Post by embedding-shape »

otherme123 wrote: post #21
throwiudjd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like current US. Military industrial complex just starts wars randomly, and does not bother with approval from senate.

I live in a country that was ruled by the military many times in the past, and the US never looked to me under treat of a military coup. In my country, any political problem real or perceived, and part of the population are already asking for the military to attempt a coup and fix things.

Yeah, ultimately it ends up being decided who the military is backing. Look at Spain, initially overtaken by a military coup. Then after Franco's death, as the transition to full blown democracy was already happening, sometime in the 80s (23-F), right as the successor to Suárez was about to take place, the military attempted another coup, but this time the military was on the people's democracy side, and basically saved democracy that day.

Really a hit or miss concept, military coups.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#24

Post by ggm »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #12
paradoxyl wrote: post #5

I'm sorry, this is just sententious bloviation. The sources are so thin, there's no reason to go around imputing all these fantastical ideas that somehow benefit your own beliefs. It's just boring and insipid to watch people fall into this trap over and over.

Agreed, the article contained a lot of speculation and not many historical examples. It was more about what the author thought “made sense” than what reality was. It was also quite long winded. Probably could have been summarized to maybe 3 reasons. Oddly enough I don’t see “money” mentioned, at least not simply, and that should probably be reason #1

If you think its quite long winded taken note it's title includes PART 1

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#25

Post by lukan »

altmanaltman wrote: post #13
RobotToaster wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sparta, their entire civilization basically atrophied because of it.

Its also because they built it entirely on slaves and refused citizenship to most. 300 was an entertaining movie but it left out the slavery that was central to Sparta.

70-85% of the spartan population were slaves. It takes a very brutal approach to keep things that way, so yes, 300 was rather not so much about the general concept of political freedom. Only about the freedom of one class to keep being slave masters and not also become subordinate to a new master on top.

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#26

Post by ralfd »

asdff wrote: post #9
vishnugupta wrote: post #2

"I have written this maxim a few different ways, but it is worth writing again: no army can help but recreate its civilian social structures on the battlefield." Interesting to see Conway's law show up here. Companies tend to ship their org structure in a product.

Reminds me of the whole "Python is for Brahmins" stuff at Microsoft India office.

What? Can you explain?

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#28

Post by Aerolfos »

RobotToaster wrote: post #7
Morromist wrote: post #4

One of my favorite dynamics: Warrior class that really kicks butt, takes control over the state and then slowly becomes obsolete but is so embedded in the social structure that it just sticks around sucking up vast resources for hundreds of years. I've read the Ottoman Empire had this happen with the Janissaries, but there are lots of other instances of the military becoming a colossal useless but dangerous parasite,…

Sparta, their entire civilization basically atrophied because of it.

Sparta never really kicked butt, they just propagandized themselves as having done so in the past, even though their performance is pretty average compared to other city states (and very dependent on their tributaries and slaves, at that).

Then Sparta started believing their propaganda and setting up a huge warrior caste, which sucked up resources for decades without ever really accomplishing anything. Then Philip rocked up and annihilated the whole place, their much-vaunted warrior caste had no chance against the Macedonians.

And fittingly enough, a good description of what Sparta was actually like and the myth of their warrior prowess is the same blog series as the original post: https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-p...

Re: Pre-Modern Armies for Worldbuilders, Part I: Why They Fight

#30

Post by orsorna »

ralfd wrote: post #26
asdff wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the whole "Python is for Brahmins" stuff at Microsoft India office.

What? Can you explain?

The exact quote "python is for brahmins" brings up top links on incels.is and 4chan, so perhaps OC's character is something worth dismissing.
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