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The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

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Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#21

Post by bryanrasmussen »

curio_Pol_curio wrote: post #9
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #3

Probably greatness is most powerful if there are enough powerful mediocrities to work against.

Bismarck? Or >his liberal father Might be a stretch to imply that the Wilhelm II was a mediocre illiberal. HIM was (for a time) interested in protecting workers' rights. However great he was, Bismarck couldn't overpower a "mediocre" populist https://germanhistorydocs.org/en/forging-an-empire-bismarcki...

I was making a general point, not specifically about Bismarck.

Assume every side has great individuals in positions of power (great being here evidently in relation to ability), greatness is thus evenly balanced and not so important to the final outcome.

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#23

Post by bsenftner »

_dain_ wrote: post #20
rbanffy wrote: post #14

When you look at white noise from up close, you see dramatic changes, periods of calm, and what seems like patterns. Only when you step back, you realise all that drama you read is mostly inconsequential. What will be the impact of Napoleon 1000 years from now? Of Columbus? If instead of Hitler Germany had Rohm? It’s all monkeys and typewriters all the way down. What matters are the structural forces, the natural res…

We still speak today of Charlemagne, Muhammed, Caesar, Alexander. Napoleon and Columbus have secured for themselves their seats in the pantheon of history and it will take longer than a thousand years for mankind to forget about them. All these men built our world.

Na, all it will take is a shift in perspective. As humanity becomes more and more Asian, those names will trigger a "who?"

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#24

Post by nixon_why69 »

matusp wrote: post #8

Of course mediocre and bad leaders make their mark on history. But Carlyle's Great Men theory is more about paradigm shifts that Great Men can will into existence, not just random noise they bring along. The problem with GM theory is that there is only a handful of examples to support it. Napoleon is one such example, and it was undoubtedly the inspiration why the theory was proposed in the first place. People were t…

I think the wrinkle of "men (or maybe women) at a particular hingepoint had their personal foibles that shaped history" is valid. There were structural forces that led to WW2 but Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin, Hitler et al being their particular personalities absolutely shaped how it unfolded.

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#25

Post by redhed »

bsenftner wrote: post #23
_dain_ wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We still speak today of Charlemagne, Muhammed, Caesar, Alexander. Napoleon and Columbus have secured for themselves their seats in the pantheon of history and it will take longer than a thousand years for mankind to forget about them. All these men built our world.

Na, all it will take is a shift in perspective. As humanity becomes more and more Asian, those names will trigger a "who?"

It'll then just be Confucius, Cao Cao, Oda Nobunaga. Doesn't really refute the point.

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#26

Post by ahartmetz »

nickhodge wrote: post #13

Reflect on this in the context of the US right now. Makuthink.

>[...] where promotions were based on the favor of a man who did not have the character to set a consistent policy made for a state that was not a credible partner.

>Germany’s interests were incomprehensible and thus there was no option other than to balance against this rogue state in the heart of Europe

>There was a saying of the Kaiser in Vienna, that Wilhelm wished to be “the stag at every hunt, the bride at every wedding, and the corpse at every funeral.”

Indeed, indeed.

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#27

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

Reminds me a quote I heard recently about wealth inequality and how the very rich can do dumb things without consequences (to them anyway) and it was along the lines of 'we don't have a merit-based system, because our system does not need merit to function'.

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#28

Post by krautburglar »

Any story that rests on the disaster that was Wilhelm II, but does not make a single reference to the “Eulenberg Affair” (i.e. elite closetgay club), is an utter waste of time.

The elites in the gayclub had many ties — personal and/or blood — to Britain, and pushed Wilhelm toward moderation in his foreign policy. Once the scandal hit the papers, gayclub dissolved, leaving (forcing, even) Wilhelm II entirely to the counsel of his generals.

By “forcing,” I mean the fellow elites in gayclub were widely known to hold pro-Britain sentiments, so Wilhelm was somewhat forced into a 180 to not go down with them in the court of public opinion.

In some small way, WWI was a “beard.”

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#29

Post by [deleted] »

rbanffy wrote: post #18
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #11

You could fit in most senior directors, consultants and sales VPs into that bucket comfortably.

Organisations have evolved to deal with them. In fact, all the rules and procedures, checks and compliance procedures are there precisely to allow the organisation to survive despite its members.

[deleted]

Re: The Kaiser and a "Mediocre Man" Theory of History

#30

Post by CuriouslyC »

_dain_ wrote: post #20
rbanffy wrote: post #14

When you look at white noise from up close, you see dramatic changes, periods of calm, and what seems like patterns. Only when you step back, you realise all that drama you read is mostly inconsequential. What will be the impact of Napoleon 1000 years from now? Of Columbus? If instead of Hitler Germany had Rohm? It’s all monkeys and typewriters all the way down. What matters are the structural forces, the natural res…

We still speak today of Charlemagne, Muhammed, Caesar, Alexander. Napoleon and Columbus have secured for themselves their seats in the pantheon of history and it will take longer than a thousand years for mankind to forget about them. All these men built our world.

People love to mythologize. The truth is usually much more mundane. Columbus in particular has a combination of Mr. Magoo quality and nastiness that is will lead history to forcefully forget him in short order.
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