What is a Demand Coop • Hacker News Board

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#21

Post by vineyardmike » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:01 AM UTC

SilverElfin wrote: post #5

bonsai_spool wrote: post #3

Essentially, we need more unions - I'm not sure we have to invent new names for these things. These won't be your parents' unions, or the union boogeyman you may have seen on TV—the union can do exactly what you wish it to do. I've been (unintentionally) part of two union drives in my own life and have seen friends in an unrelated field participate in a third. They make perfect sense in moments like our current one,…

I wouldn’t mind unions except they get involved in all sorts of political battles that I would get opted into. I would rather they focus on the barebones of negotiation for compensation instead of taking it over like it’s their personal nonprofit.

Everything is political. Politics have been heavily intertwined with work forever. The history of unions is intertwined with literal government violence.

Negotiations for compensation is like the least life-impacting thing a union can do. Tech workers are well paid and capable of negotiating.

Things like work hours, quality of life, paid leaves, etc are important and can’t really be negotiated by the individual. Every labor victory from yesterday is the status quo but every future one is politics.

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#22

Post by shagie » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:01 AM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #14

hackthemack wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The best time to form a union was 20 years ago (Especially because Tech Workers had leverage because they were in demand). The second best time to form a union is today.

Call it an association or guild or something other than a union. Lawyers and doctor have unions but they don't call it that.

Those are setting the minimum qualifications for a licensed profession... but not the pay or working conditions for those professionals.

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#23

Post by well_ackshually » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:03 AM UTC

SilverElfin wrote: post #5

bonsai_spool wrote: post #3

Essentially, we need more unions - I'm not sure we have to invent new names for these things. These won't be your parents' unions, or the union boogeyman you may have seen on TV—the union can do exactly what you wish it to do. I've been (unintentionally) part of two union drives in my own life and have seen friends in an unrelated field participate in a third. They make perfect sense in moments like our current one,…

I wouldn’t mind unions except they get involved in all sorts of political battles that I would get opted into. I would rather they focus on the barebones of negotiation for compensation instead of taking it over like it’s their personal nonprofit.

[flagged]

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#24

Post by paultopia » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:04 AM UTC

There are actually really interesting tech intersections here, possibly. 8 years ago I published an article[1] that ended with some speculation about the possibility of automating organized consumer action to permit, for example, people to coordinate to force companies to drop abusive terms in contracts. The co-op model is in the same family.

Back in the day, my basic idea was basically this: the reason that consumer companies can impose unfair terms on people is because it's basically only a small amount of money to an individual, and it's costly for people to coordinate. For example, the expected cost to me of some company's arbitration clause is small, because the probability of any individual into a dispute with them is low. But in the aggregate it's bad: over a million customers (say) it's almost certain that one of those customers gets royally screwed by it. So: what if all those million customers of company X could all agree to automatically cancel their service contracts with X, if and only if enough other people also agree to do so that a simultaneous cancellation would cause real pain to the company's bottom line. And then enforce that agreement with automation. Some basic game theory suggests the objectionable clause immediately goes boom.

[1] https://utppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3138/utlj.2017-0047 ... sorry for the academic journal paywall

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#25

Post by OutOfHere » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:07 AM UTC

This is just asking for the job to be hurriedly outsourced to where this is not a thing, if not eliminated altogether. It makes sense only for jobs that are tightly geographically constrained and are not subject to work visa imports.

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#26

Post by ceheaaf » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:07 AM UTC

kaashif wrote: post #12

aiisahik wrote: post #11

Dumbest idea i've ever seen. Complete misunderstanding of how the tech world works. The idea is: if sufficient consumers banded together and coordinated their spending power, they can drive decisions in the executive suite of the companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's neither the spending of consumer nor even the spending of business that drive decisions. The only thing that drives decisions at that…

Also, if you are doing something other than maximising returns then you'll be outcompeted and irrelevant in the long run unless you attract many billions in inflows, or the government tips the scales in your favour e.g. ESG.

the part of the long run before you starve to death in an empty room with a large number on your bank account

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#27

Post by creamyhorror » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:08 AM UTC

aiisahik wrote: post #11

Dumbest idea i've ever seen. Complete misunderstanding of how the tech world works. The idea is: if sufficient consumers banded together and coordinated their spending power, they can drive decisions in the executive suite of the companies. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's neither the spending of consumer nor even the spending of business that drive decisions. The only thing that drives decisions at that…

I'm not sure it's so black and white. Directing capital is powerful, and directing spending is powerful (but probably harder; this is marketing or government). I think it's more that directing spending requires influencing a lot more people than directing capital.

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#28

Post by tptacek » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:11 AM UTC

vineyardmike wrote: post #21

SilverElfin wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t mind unions except they get involved in all sorts of political battles that I would get opted into. I would rather they focus on the barebones of negotiation for compensation instead of taking it over like it’s their personal nonprofit.

Everything is political. Politics have been heavily intertwined with work forever. The history of unions is intertwined with literal government violence. Negotiations for compensation is like the least life-impacting thing a union can do. Tech workers are well paid and capable of negotiating. Things like work hours, quality of life, paid leaves, etc are important and can’t really be negotiated by the individual. Ever…

OK, but that doesn't answer the concern of the person you're responding to. They're just not going to join. It's a common objection!

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#29

Post by Jensson » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:12 AM UTC

bonsai_spool wrote: post #3

Essentially, we need more unions - I'm not sure we have to invent new names for these things. These won't be your parents' unions, or the union boogeyman you may have seen on TV—the union can do exactly what you wish it to do. I've been (unintentionally) part of two union drives in my own life and have seen friends in an unrelated field participate in a third. They make perfect sense in moments like our current one,…

> the union can do exactly what you wish it to do.

ICE can also do "exactly what you wish it to do", so why do people complain about it so much and want it gone when it does what people want?

The answer is that even democratic institutions easily get corrupted and hard to deal with. US unions seem to be very prone to this for some reason, both union leaders and corporate lobbyists wants the unions to be corrupt so I don't see that changing either. Many people would gladly take a salary penalty if it lets them avoid yet another corrupt bureaucracy above them.

Re: What is a Demand Coop

#30

Post by vlovich123 » Thu, May 21, 2026, 3:13 AM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #4

> In many existing demand cooperatives, such as rotating savings groups, there is often a trusted central coordinator — frequently an older community member — who helps maintain accountability and keep the interests of the group aligned. Aligned with what? Whenever a central position is formed with power over something, even if it’s only a steering power, it will be sought out by power-hungry people and manipulated.…

> how they’d address them rather than waving it all away under the guidance of a benevolent individual at the center.

Believe it or not, there’s no power structure that is immune to not having a benevolent individual at the center. That’s because most things are norms and practices developed culturally, not codified in power structures or laws.